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anitvenom
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by Rosestars on February 10, 2006
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I have read that some people have bad reactions to antivenom. I was wondering why they dont make it from humans more often? Wouldnt a human made antivenom work better?Is the sheep antivenom working out better than the horse version or are there still reactions? Also I read that Australia offers a snake venom detection kit to deterimine what type of snake bit someone do you think everyone should have one? Thanks
Lisa
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RE: anitvenom
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by LarryDFishel on February 10, 2006
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:) That's a great idea... Would you be willing to volunteer to be injected with massive amounts of rattlesnake venom for a few months and then have a few gallons of your blood siphoned off?
Horses are strong, have lots of blood and rarely sue anyone if they have complications...
(In case the humor doesn't come across, I'm not taking a jab (pun alert) at you, just having a little fun with the idea.)
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RE: anitvenom
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by LarryDFishel on February 10, 2006
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Sorry, missed your other questions.
The ovine (sheep-based) antivenom seems to have less of a problem with alergic reactions but there are some serious questions about how effective it is. Others may be able to give you more detailed information.
As far as venom detection kits, it's not nearly as much of an issue here as in Australia. All you really need to know for sure is, was it a coral snake or not a coral snake and corals are pretty easy to identify. There are only two antivenoms for native snakes. One for corals and one for everything else.
Things change when someone is keeping exotics but those bites have, almost without exception, been to the keeper who should probably know what they have. If they don't, I have no sympathy for them...
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RE: anitvenom
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by Rosestars on February 10, 2006
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Dear Larry,
Thanks for your answers and I was just wondering, with all of the snake lovers on here who have been bitten couldnt an antivenom be created from one of them? I remember a tv show where a man kept snakes and had been bitten so many times they said they used him for anitvenom. And in answer to your question if it could save a life I would certainly consider it . But it might be better to pay me :). Perhaps they could recruit people to be used to create a human anitvenom or a man like the one I mentioned could create it using himself? I have read that it would be more effective but that in rare cases very bad reactions could occur. Still all in all I think it would be better and safer and more people could use it. Especially for the more deadly snakes where the antivenom is so badly needed. What do you think could it be done?
Lisa
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by LarryDFishel on February 10, 2006
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His name is Bill Haast, and the reason he had enough antibodies to be useful was because he injected himself on a weekly basis with a mixture of venoms, not because he was bitten a few times. People who are bitten and survive do produce antibodies but not enough to be useful and they don't last long.
Could it be done? Probably. I'm guessing you'd need 10 times as many people as horses, have to pay them well and no insurance company would touch you with a ten foot pole. The antivenom to treat a bite from a U.S. snake can cost $30,000 as it is. Who knows what it would cost using human serum.
In the countries that have the worst problems with venomous bites it would probably be more cost effective but then again horses and the current antivenoms are already far cheaper there too.
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by Rosestars on February 10, 2006
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Dear Larry,
Thanks for the info on Mr. Haast. I read this article about him. He injects himself with a self made vaccine of venom and his blood has the power to save lives. How wonderful. He feels it keeps him young. I wonder how many different types of snakes bites he could protect against, even more so in the third world countries where there are so many deaths? He is a special man. Here is the article. http://outside.away.com/outside/magazine/0797/9707bite.html
I wonder if others would be willing to build up a resistance to snake poison in the same way?
I have another question since we are on the topic of snake bites what about more natural remedies? Do they help? I have read that dogs in Australia injected with vitamin c have survived snake bites. Perhaps everyone should carry vitamin C with them if they are in any risk of getting bitten by a snake? And what about the sawyer suction snake bite kit? Are you a fan? How well does it work? I also read to take an antihistamine before going to the doctor in case you have a bad reaction to antivenom is that true? Thanks for your answers. This is a fascinating conversation to me as I just signed up today and know very little about snakes.
Lisa
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by LarryDFishel on February 10, 2006
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There are others who are imunizing themselves the same way, but again, they are using enough to protect themselves, not the kinds of massive amounts needed to achieve what is done with horses and sheep. Mr. Haast's blood was used to treat bites, but that was way back when there was no horse serum and no other alternative. No hospital would agree to do the same today when the proven serum is availible.
You will read about a lot of people claiming this or that saved someone from a snake bite. People tend to believe it because they don't realize that most snake bites are not fatal even with no treatment.
As for the sawyer extractor, do a search on this site for "sawyer" and you'll probably find 37 previous discussions on the subject.
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RE: anitvenom
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by Rosestars on February 11, 2006
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Dear Larry,
I did read a long group of postings on here about copperhead bites and the man who started it refused to go to the hospital after being bitten by his new snake because he said he couldnt take the horse antivenom. Its for people like that who are allergic to the antivenom that I was thinking they might want an alternative.What if someone refuses medical attention and dies or has permanent damage all because they cant tolerate the animal based antivenom on the market today? Would a person like Mr Haast be helpful to them ? I also read Mr Haast has damaged hands from so many snake bites and that seems to be a common place many snake lovers get bitten, my other question is why dont they wear protective gloves while handling their snakes?
I think a snake or spider killed my cat a few years ago.He came onto the porch crying and limping holding his paw up. We took him to the vets and they didnt find anything. He died a day later had increasingly bad trouble breathing . Before he died I wiped the mud off his paw and saw two bloody pin prick marks on it. I wish I had seen it sooner but by the time I found it he was dying. I wish I had known more aboout this back then.
I read some posts on the suction device and nobody seems to agree on it I think your own opinion is that its only good in the very beginning. Apparently you all do agree to use a compression bandage though.And also pressure immobilization technique was mentionioned which I just read involves an elastic bandage either above and below the bite or just wrapping up the entire area and adding a splint. The site I found also mentions using a constriction band wrapped closer to the heart than the bite.
I think more doctors should be trained in the use of anitvenom and snake bites. One thing I read on here over and over is clueless doctors who dont know what to do. Do you think you could prepare some information to send out to hospitals ? Perhaps work with a snake bite doctor to compile it and your readers can take it to the area hospitals near them so if someone gets bitten at least they will be more prepared ?
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RE: anitvenom
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by captiveherps on February 11, 2006
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The correct medical procedure would be to provide antivenin anytime envonomation has been confirmed.
Many people who keep hots will forgo antivenin for mild bites for a number of reasons including increased risk of allergic reaction with repeated exposure to horse serum. Permanent damage would not be likely as a reaction to the antivenin, though it is very possible as a result of not using it.
The idea of using human antibodies would never fly with the FDA. It would be completely impractical to try to develop a drug this way, you would never be able to harvest enough antibodies and you would have all sorts of groups screaming about exploiting the poor, third would populations and such.
Not to mention the difficulties in tiring to make it safe and disease free.
Bill Haast would not be able to help someone that was bitten, and he would be very likely to tell you that what is does is very risky and would be completely impractical for private keepers to do. He started injecting himself decades ago, because he was milking snakes all the time, not just risking being bitten during cage maintenance.
Wearing gloves will not protect someone from a viper bite, the fangs are too big. They will work for most rear fang snakes.
I doubt your cat would have died from a spider bite, not many spiders are capable of fatal bites. Snake bite, possible, but it doesn't sound like it. I find it highly dubious that any vet would not have cleaned the mud off of your cats foot to inspect it when that seemed to be the problem. Few vets would have let you take the cat home if it had trouble breathing, they would also have wanted x-rays and blood work.
The extractor you speak of may have some limited use if it applied within a few seconds of being bitten but it will not reverse a envonomation.
Constriction bandages are generally only used for elapid bites, they will make most viper bites worse by containing the tissue destroying compounds in a small area.
I would agree that most doctors don't know much about snake bites as most will never treat one, but any hospital in areas where they occur will be familiar with the correct procedures. Treatment information is available to them at any time, they do not need an info packet. Keepers of exotic snakes should make themselves familiar with treatment procedures as well as their doctor but most do not have antivenin anyway. Miami Dade has the correct and up to date info along with the antivenin they stock.
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RE: anitvenom
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by Rosestars on February 12, 2006
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Dear Larry,
Hi. Living in Central Florida I wonder if there are certain spiders nasty enough to kill a cat? I honestly believe that he was bitten by something its only a matter of figuring out what it was. A cat's paw is not very big so those two bite marks had to come from either a large spider or a small snake, or maybe some other poisonous creature I dont know about. I dont mean to say his entire paw was caked in mud just a little where he was bitten and you would think the vets would have been smart enough to wash it off but they were not. We found out that not all vets are created equal and the ones we took him too were pretty useless. His breathing became progressively worse after we brought him home until the last few seconds of his life he seemed to be suffocating on his own lung fluids. I never left his side but I didnt know what to do for him. If I had known he was going to die like that and not pull through I would have had him put to sleep earlier. I kick myself for that still. But I didnt know .
The posts I read on here about the copperhead bites were not all left by snake lovers . Some came here because they or a person they cared about had been bitten outside and they wanted answers. They would not have known what to tell a doctor. And they all said the same thing that no doctor seemed to know what to do . One writer claimed the first hospital told her there was no such thing as antivenom can you believe it? I think the most important thing I was looking for besides the info pack, was for a doctor who specialized in snake bites to make his phone number available to call for advice when a bad bite case comes to a hospital that doesnt know what to do. Not every hostpital is as well equiped as Miami.
I guess you may be right about the anitvenom, human wouldnt fly although maybe in the future they will find a way with new technology using stem cells or something.
Lisa
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