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Cedar mulch
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by shawnfraser on May 20, 2008
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I would like to know if anyone has any hard, emperical evidence that cedar mulch is harmful to snakes. I have been keeping a yellow ratsnake (Pantherophis [Elaphe] obsoletus quadrivittatus) on cedar mulch substrate for about 4 months with no ill effects (all stores were out of cypress,etc.).The cage is 6 ft. tall with 3 basking shelves and the snake is not in contact with the substrate often. The ratsnake is eating, growing, and shows no signs of stress. I certainly do not want the snake to suffer or get sick, but I have a suspicion that this may be one of those herper myths propogated by the "armies of self-proclaimed reptile experts on the internet" (quote from: De Vosjoli, Phillipe "The Art Of Keeping Snakes" 2004 - The Herpetocultural Library Pg.177-188). If anyone has proof that this is harmful to snakes I will change the substrate immediately. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts,
Shawn
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RE: Cedar mulch
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by BobH on May 20, 2008
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The definitive answer is that cedar produces aromatic carbon rich oils that repel insects and other herbivores. You should be able to google it and find some of the toxic reports to small mammals(I didn't try). The oils are volative so depending how long ago it was converted to mulch there might not be a high level in you substrate. Personally I would not risk it. Hope this helps.
Bob
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RE: Cedar mulch
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by 23bms on May 20, 2008
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Very - VERY - early in my herp keeping days, I tried using cedar chips in a cage in which I was keeping a Northern Copperhead. Not terribly long after doing so, I found the snake writhing and having convulsions. I immediately pulled it out, changed the substrate, and, thank heaven, it recovered. I am ravaged with guilt to this day.
Never, NEVER, use cedar!
jrb
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RE: Cedar mulch
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by BigBend66 on May 21, 2008
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No myth, the toxic smell is strong enough to make you not want to be in a room with it. Could you imagine being confined in a tank with it....
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RE: Cedar mulch
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by FLherp on May 21, 2008
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Try these links:
http://www.trifl.org/cedar.shtml
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC34301
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2926083
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=210052
There are others, some by laymen. The scientific articles hold more weight with me as they are not influenced by the ancedotes traveling through the pet trade to the same extent as the pet owners. Original source material is always best.
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RE: Cedar mulch
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by Crotalusssp on May 21, 2008
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Comes down to a risk it seems. I have heard stories of problems up to and including death and I have heard stories of success. I personally stick with good old newspaper and avoid the risk.
Charles
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RE: Cedar mulch
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by shawnfraser on May 21, 2008
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Thanks everyone! The mulch I have in the cage doesn't have much of a odour to it at all - it if was strong I wouldn't have chanced it. I will replace it today.
I have read an online article (can't remember where I found it) where someone claimed they had studied cedar shavings and rodent husbandry and found it did not cause problems.
I have seen other reptile forum topics where it was claimed that cedar caused blood poisoning in reptiles, others claimed it caused respiratory infections, and some just claimed it was always fatal. I felt that if no one could say exactly what the problem was, perhaps it was just a misconception.
After hearing everyones thoughts on this forum I will change the substrate.
Shawn
Oh yeah - I spelled "empirical" wrong in my first post.
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