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RE: 8 Long Months
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by Cro on October 14, 2006
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Well, lets see.
If a Gaboon buries itself in the forest floor, I guess that this could to some extent act as an anchor, but would probably be more the actions of helping to camoflague itself and blend in with the forest floor. Perhaps they do not do this in captivity as much as the cage substrates are not as deep as a forest floor litter.
Gaboons are one of the worlds heaviest snakes, and allready have one of the worlds fastest and most powerfull strikes. The Idea that they have to retain crap to help anchor them so they can strike faster and more powerfully makes little sense to me.
If we have a 15 pound Gaboon holding 1 pound of crap, and another 15 pound Gaboon retaning 3 pounds of crap, will the 3 pounder be faster striking simply because his back end weighs more? Are you faster after a big Thanksgiving dinner or slower? And how does a captive snake know to retain crap, and a wild one know that he does not need to do that?
Also, a snake with several pounds of crap to tote around would be slower at excaping predators than a snake with a empty digestive system.
I really see no survival advantage, and several disadvantages for a Gaboon to retain pounds of crap for long periods of time.
I still believe that long term crap retention in captive Gaboons, (or any other snake for that matter), is due to lack of exercise and lack of hydration, and is a husbandry problem. Perhaps one that is not easily fixed, but potentionally dangerous to the snakes health.
I can see some advantage to a reptile dealer if he were selling Gaboons that were full of crap by the pound, LOL !
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: 8 Long Months
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by idioteque4444 on October 14, 2006
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First of all, John, let me just say that I think you are an incredible asset to the reptile world. You are extremely knowledgable in the husbandry and proper care of reptiles. But, it seems to me that you got a little unneccessarily bent out of shape over this issue.
I seem to remember a thread being started a couple of weeks ago called, "We Have Met the Enemy, and He Is Us", where you defended less experienced keepers who come under attack for voicing their opinions and concerns. It seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are pretty much saying that my observations and opinions of my own personal Gaboons seem ridiculous to you because the actions of my animals don't match the actions of the animals that you cared for in a zoo.
I am by no means an expert on the topic, and I don't have a college degree in Biology to back up what I say. Just like you and most other people on this site, my knowledge is based on my own observations and readings on the animals. I scan these threads daily, and do learn new things all the time from other keepers. Sometimes, even proving wrong my own theories. I especially enjoy reading your threads, as they are usually very informitive.
There are pleanty of websites with articles to support the theory that I stated about Gaboons using there stool as an anchor. Here is one: http://coloherp.org/cb-news/Vol-30/cbn-0307/ViperTale.php
There is also an article in the October 2006 "All-venomous issue" of Reptiles magazine, written by Gregg Madden supporting that theory. Gregg has been breeding Gaboons for nine years.
I am in no way trying to prove you wrong. It all boils down to opinions. Until the animals speak up and verbaly tell us what is what, none of us are true experts. It's always a learning process. Perhaps the problem is based on a lack of excercise. In fact, I am going to go buy a treadmill for my Gaboons this evening, LOL.
It just seemed to me that you wanted to end this thread because of my difference in opinion. I say disagreement is ok. I believe it's the best way to learn. "It's the weekend, buy a pint and chill" - LOL...By the way, I am now selling my Gaboons at $19.95 a pound.
SAL RICCO
WNCHerps
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RE: 8 Long Months
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by Cro on October 14, 2006
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Sal, I really dont think I am ``bent out of shape`` on the issue of Gaboons retaining waste material.
I am just having fun, and dis-agreeing on the subject. My ``LOL`` is not an attack on you, but a dissagreament with your theory of crap retention in Gaboon Vipers. By the way, the link to crap retention you posted did not work, so I do not know what others have had to say about the subject.
You are right in that until we can ask a Gaboon, we will never know know for sure his/her intentions.
I just have an different idea as to why Gaboons retain feces. You seem to think it is because they need an anchor, and I seem to think it is because of dehydration and lack of exercise in captivity.
That is the fun part of this web-site, we can offer different ideas, and defend our theories. And in the end, we could all be right or all be wrong, as science is not chistled in granite, and is ever changing. What science today says is right, tomorrow is wrong. And we can all get together at a reptile show and discuss theories, and share a pint at the banquet afterwords!
I have my ideas about Gaboon Vipers and you have yours. I have only been messing with them for 35 years, so there is still a lot I have to learn about them.
What is fun about this site, is that it is like a high-school debabate. Perhaps others who keep Gaboons like AL will jump in and say wether their Gaboons are faster when they are constipated or not. I am just voting for not, LOL. I am looking at the survival advantage a snake full of crap would have verses a snake that was not full of crap. I see the empty snake coming out in front from a survival standpoint.
As I said, it is all in good fun. If we all agreed on stuff, there would be no reason for a web site. And if science was so static and all known, it sure would be booring !
Best Regards JohnZ
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: 8 Long Months
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by Cro on October 15, 2006
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Sal, a couple of more thoughts. I apologise if it seemed that my dissagreement with your theory was some kind of attack.
You stated:
``It seems like, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are pretty much saying that my observations and opinions of my own personal Gaboons seem ridiculous to you because the actions of my animals don't match the actions of the animals that you cared for in a zoo.``
I did not consider your theory ``rediculous`` at all. (Slightly amusing, yes), But, I carefully considered it before I responded. (Unlike Bryan who posted that he agreed with you a full 30 seconds after your post).
That was part of the reason for my ``LOL.``
Folks who know me will tell you that I have this chuckle, sort of a mini laugh, when I find something amusing or interesting. But if I had posted ``COL`` you would have not known what I was talking about.
I do take all posts here seriously, and realise that everyone here is trying to learn and share. Sometimes folks express things in amusing ways, but I know that their ideas are just as valuable as everyone else.
I will find and read the links that you posted as to others who share your theory. And maybee I will dissagree with them also, or maybee they will present evidence that will change my mind.
On your other idea that I was trying to ``shut down the thread,`` that is something I rarely try to do unless a thread turns into personal attacks and insults.
I love to see threads go on for pages, and love to see them morph, and see everybody else jump in. I hope that this thread will have every Gaboon keeper out there jumping in and offering their 3 cents worth (inflation). Nothing worse than a thread that dies an early death.
Hope this explains things some.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: 8 Long Months
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by petra on October 15, 2006
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I’ve read the whole thread and even though I'm well aware that my opinion is not worth much as I have only kept rhino vipers and not gaboons. I’ve decided to write what I think anyways. I don't believe the animal would purposely retain feces to make itself heavier as it really seems more of a disadvantage to me. I’m sure that there are people that kept them for a long time and they do believe this theory, but it’s still a theory as I’m sure they didn’t get the chance to talk to their gaboons.
However I'd say that even if hydration and exercise are there, the stress can be a factor too. A have heard of a lot of gaboons that wouldn't even feed if they don't have a top cover of leafs to hide in. I'm sure everyone is aware that there are snakes that would stop eating if they do not like something (even the temperature may be a reason if it's higher than they like)...well some snakes may not stop eating they may stop defecating. My rhinos didn't go for 3 months after they arrived even though everything was kept as perfect in their cage as possible - they were just stressed out form the shipping and new enclosure. I did have to put a little of mineral oil in their food (they kept feeding very well)
After this they never went for more than 3 weeks after feeding. I didn't need to soak them. They ate very well, were sprayed every other day and happily drunk from their water bowl.
I think if their metabolism was designed to hold feces for such a long period of time majority of gaboons would do so and we would be discussing issues like “why do they go so often” if there were some defecating every few weeks.
…just my two cents :)
Petra
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RE: 8 Long Months
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by Cro on October 15, 2006
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Wery good points Petra ! Stress could very well come into play. Other factors could be temperature, and photoperiod. And perhaps the soaking that folks do creates more stress on the animals than it cures.
Now we have got this thread going again, lets see what others have to offer.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: 8 Long Months
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by idioteque4444 on October 15, 2006
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LOL...OK OK. Lets get this ball rolling again! I have probably had somewhere around 50 - 60 Bitis species come and go from my collection. From Gaboons to Rhinos to Puffs. From babies to large adults. Again, my theories are simply opinions based on my own observations and readings.
No one on this thread that has provided an answer to this mysterious question is wrong. My theory is based on readings from articles in magazines to online websites. Anyone who read the last venomous issue of Reptiles, I'm sure has read the "anchor" theory. Where a Gaboon can retain 20% of its body weight to help stabalize itself during a strike. As John has stated, Gaboons have one of the most powerful strikes of just about any snake out there. Anyone who feeds from tongs can sometimes feel this power. Some people believe that because their strike is so powerful, the extra wieght is used to "anchor" themselves from moving with the momentum of that strike. Some may feel it is unlikely, but, it is feasible.
How would a Gaboon know to do this? My guess is, the same way a Kingsnake or a Ratsnake knows to rattle its tail to fool predators. Or, how a Hognose can not only play dead, but emit a foul smell. How about how a Horned Toad can squirt blood from it's eye when threatened. Think about all the wierd things reptiles have been known to do, physically. Every other animal, as well as humans can hold in feces when it wants, so why couldn't a Gaboon? If we are driving with no restroom in sight, do we just release it into the drivers seat? Or, when you sit in a warm tub, do you wind up with "chunky" bath water? I don't soak my Gaboon often at all, because I believe, that when they want to go, they will go.
Johns theory of movement to loosen up the bowels is also probable. In fact, I remeber the first Gaboon I ever had. I purchesed a sub-adult male from a vendor at one of the Columbia shows. About 3/4 of the way home, the entire vehicle stunk. My wife and I figured it was the bumpy mountain roads that caused it.
As Petra said, stress can be a factor, which is another reason I don't soak my Gaboons as much. Perhaps, Bryans weekly soaking is too much? As far as Gaboons not feeding unless they are under a cover of leaves? I don't know about that. I have never had a Gaboon that did'nt feed. The only Gaboons I have ever heard of not feeding were either wild caught or sick.
I still believe it is a theory that goes snake to snake and keeper to keeper. Like I said earlier, I have had Gaboons that have gone every few days, and some every few months. And I also believe that survival behaviors will diminish in captive animals (especially CB) when they have nothing to be threatened by, except for the keepers.
John, my apologies for reading to deeply in your posts. I love a good debate also. As I said, I feel its a great way to learn. And I also think it is fun. Where else can you have an ongoing discussion about snake poop?
SAL RICCO
WNCHerps
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