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NEED HELP FAST.........
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by fizzbob7 on November 5, 2002
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i have read about cedar shavings being toxic to reptiles....i have been having a lot of problems with my snakes lately.....a friend had borrowed a cage a few months ago and he said something about having some mice in there and he used some shavings for substrate...i havent thought much about it until now, but can it be passed between animals that have been in the cage to others and is there anything to counteract it...i have a dead edb being necropsied at the moment and i will see if he can check specifically for that, but is that something that will show up....another died today, a cane that ate well and showed no ill signs whatsoever....im pissed cuz he was my favorite and he has died the same way the other have...i thought stress or worms or something at first due to eating problems but he was the most eager feeder i had....always took a meal and seemed fine until a few minutes ago....what can i do other than sterilize everything i have that has come in contact with them....hellllp
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RE: NEED HELP FAST.........
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Anonymous post on November 5, 2002
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sounds like you got the snakes before you learned anything about keeping them
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RE: NEED HELP FAST.........
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Anonymous post on November 6, 2002
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sorry I must concur with human above....
the problem with red ceder is that is aromatic so it's the smell that is hazardous to there little lungs, and the animal would not have just up and died...
If I were you I would look into Cryptosporidium as you complain of many snakes dieing!
but why are you worried abou the ceder did you not clean the cage when you got it back?
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RE: NEED HELP FAST.........
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by sierra on November 6, 2002
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Thier are just too many variables to be able to help you much over the internet, but I would suggest investing in some nolvasan to clean the entire room and everything in it...I too doubt that the culprit is the cedar or parasites, could be bacterial or viral, but it could also be the temps(heat stress, if the basking area is in too small a cage)Sorry but there are any number of things that could be the cause, you really need to step back and evaluate the whole set-up for the animals..If I've followed correctly you've had at least three snakes die recently, so you really need to figure out whats going on, have the vet do some cultures to rule out some of the risk factors, but also consider your handling techniques as well as your room/cage temps(both day and night)...leave no stone unturned..Have you been using bleach to clean your cages? If so have you been rinsing it well? What types of substates are you using....do not get any more animals until you have found the problem, and you may need to treat the animals you have...be sure to be very thorough when cleaning everything....especially the cages where animals have been that have died, how many animals do have left? I have seen whole collections wiped out in just a few weeks, cross contamination can play a role, but if airborne virus or bacteria that your missing during cleaning, then passing it on to the others(not cleaning your hooks between animls or not cleaning the holding containers or your hands..etc)
Sorry not much more help
sierra
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RE: NEED HELP FAST.........
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by fizzbob7 on November 6, 2002
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hint: didn't know he used cedar, or anything as a substrate, until i thought about it and asked....
and as far as not knowing enough about them before i got them...i knew plenty, just not everything....just like no one that handles them knows it all about them or my problem would be solved....i always quarantine a new acquisition, keep everything cleaned, always rinse thouroughly and dry completely, boil cage furniture after a little while or if any reason comes up to do it, never used cedar myself for anything and never used pebbles or anything that could interfere with digestion if it where accidentally eaten....and regardless, the stress level is low, way more than ample room, the cages aren't decorated for looks but for functionality, temps are ideal for each species, fed enough but not too much, correct humidity, feces removed asap and water kept clean along with substrate...i normally feed in an empty aquarium so i dont have to worry about it eating some of the substrate, and that is the same one i found out had some cedar in it...i cleaned it after i got it back rom him but i just basically rinsed it because i didnt know he used it for the purposes that he did.....and why post anonymously...what are you afraid of...criticism?.....should you be a human, because unforeseen things happen to us, what if you get cancer and die, does that mean you should be able to protect against something like that, anonymous, why hasnt anyone cured cancer.....bad things can happen to anyone....and it is just an odd enough problem that a veterenarian doesnt know what the problem is quite yet..it intrigues him enough that he is doing the necropsy free of charge to try and figure something out in case it comes up again somewhere down the road...he may find nothing and i might never know but that shouldnt deter me from doing what i like....i can just be 100% careful and start from scratch.....just like the disease that affects boids, inclusion body disease....how many people keep these animals and still no one has any idea about that disease...its 100% fatal, but there is no way to tell where it comes from or why.....not everything is straightforward....your questioning of my dedication to the hobby pisses me off...im doing all i can do and have done all i can do to prevent whatever....and thanks sierra for something constructive....i didnt think anyone would have a definite answer but i was looking for ideas or better yet, some experience with something like this....from what i have read, not everyone agrees that cedar/pine is even detrimental to animals at all, as far as calling it a health risk is concerned....it bothers me so i assume it could at least make an animal uncomfortable...and i read that it promotes the growth of a certain type of fungus that can affect the skin and the immune system, kind of like HIV does to mammals....it doesnt kill it but it allows normally treatable diseases to...thanks for any help.....
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RE: NEED HELP FAST.........
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by fizzbob7 on November 6, 2002
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and as far as cryptosporidium, wouldnt there be a noticeable difference in the feces....and wouldnt i be in danger of getting it.....do reptiles even get this because i have never heard it except for when mammals, mainly humans, were concerned.....lets say you have a snake, do everything right, it eats well, the feces seems normal(as far as that goes), and it acts exactly like it always has, it basks in the light from time to time, drinks, eats, etc......then after you have seen it doing the same thing it always does, you look in a couple of hours later and it is dead...no swelling, bleeding, nasty fluids anywhere or anything.....it's just dead.....i am just having no signs AT ALL that anything is wrong until i find it dead.....maybe the doc will find something helpful...i just dont want people to think i have my snakes because i want people to think i'm a badass or to impress my friends in any other way....most people know nothing of them....i dont care for their uninformed negative opinions of how my life is at risk...i have them because i want them and i learned all i felt i needed to know to get started without putting any living thing, snake or human, in any danger....there is a lot left to be learned obviously but that goes for a lot of people....im not sacrificing the life of my snake because i wanna show everyone that they rattle and im not afraid of them...thats stupid.....
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RE: NEED HELP FAST.........
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by fizzbob7 on November 8, 2002
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what about OPV....will that show up on the necropsy...someone mentioned it....what is it...
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RE: NEED HELP FAST.........
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by TomT on November 12, 2002
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OPV is Ophidian paramyxovirus.... Do a search on Elliott Jacobsen (or Jacobson) at the University of Florida for a much more comprehensive overview than I can give you here.... it's generally fatal, and yes it can be detected through necropsy.
Good luck with your snakes. I wouldn't give, sell or trade any of them away until you figure this out, and I'd be bleaching the enclosures of the dead, and airing them out, before putting anything else in them.
Tom
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