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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by ALA_herp31 on January 5, 2005
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Like I said, you can count on the regulations helping some, but if you start allowing the State Governments to regulate to much, it becomes a all out ban in progress. It all comes down to the fact that our Governments don’t think we can help ourselves. The more Government regulations, the more rights begin to disappear. History has taught us one thing if nothing else, every time the Government steps in, things get lost in paper work, rights and freedoms start to fade away. I know in my bones of bones, if we allow these so called regulations to be put in place, they wont stop till they kill our hobby. I know we have some truly stupid keepers in our hobby, but do we all have to suffer because of their stupidity. I hope and Pray that we as good respectable keepers, can fight these Government control freaks that have only their Political career in mind. Lets fight these bone pickers with true fire of voice ya’ll and keep these rights we value so much. (Just the opinion of a old country boy that has come to love Venomous Snakes like they was my children). Don’t let these control freaks win......Be safe ya’ll, happy herping Wally
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by stopgetinpopped on January 5, 2005
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"It all comes down to the fact that our Governments don’t think we can help ourselves."
The fact is, we CAN'T help ourselves.
Regulation IS the way of this country. When people start hurting themselves and others needlessly (stupidly)
Laws get put into place for the protection of the largest agreeable population.
Look at this hobby! Not two people can agree on squat. Not one single subject.
Hate me if you all must, but I helped draft that proposal....and I'll do it again, in your states if they ask.
The only difference between you all and me is that I CHOOSE to use my voice. You all are not ASKED for your professional opinions by governmental agencies... it just so happens that I am on occasion asked. So if you don't like something, speak louder!
Larry, a regulation was put into effect many years ago. This regulation has probably saved the lives of millions of people! It's called a drivers exam and license. Not fail proof but pretty effective for the largest percent of the population.
Not all regs are bad, and this one concerning venomous snakes is not bad. In fact it would make your daily dose of your hobby more enjoyable if all the states or a federal reg was placed!
Since, you all dislike this regulation (and all others.)
Please tell me what you would have me or anyone else say when governmental agencies contact me or anyone else and want to know what I think would be the best thing to do about this problem? Small problem? ( compared to many others, yes.) A problem that many legislators are choosing to deal with though.... So what should be said to these people?
Taphillip
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by Buzztail1 on January 5, 2005
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Terry,
It looks pretty well laid out.
I only have a couple of questions that you may have already considered.
1) Is the NTL ready to deal with the volume of people applying for permits or will they become a bottleneck holding up reasonably safe and experienced keepers due to sheer workload volume?
2) The Health Certificate issue is another possible bottleneck. While on the surface it looks feasable, consider trying to get health certificates for a single season's successful breeding of 4 or 5 colubrids.
Just some thoughts. Otherwise, it all looks pretty reasonable to me. I got a Florida license even though I don't live in Florida. My reasoning behind that is a little long and perhaps not on topic for this discussion but I do agree that it is much better to have herp people involved on the ground level of making regulations than to just let the lawmakers slam something together that we have to try to change later.
I have seen the health certificate issue seriously impact turtle and tortoise trade in Florida for a season or two. I am not sure how they worked it out.
Karl
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by ALA_herp31 on January 6, 2005
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Tell these law makers, if they are gone bring in laws on keeping Venomous Reptiles, to be sure they don’t leave holes that can be filled by other intrusive laws. I know that in years past we have had to pass laws to keep stupid ppl from doing stupid things, but should every person that lives in this country have to pay for their stupidity. Saying that ppl cant judge what is good for them, is asking our Government to take full control over what we do, this would be commonly know as Government control over the ppl. This is not what our Bill of Rights was based on. Fact of the matter is that every thing you do in life is just as dangerous for other ppl around you as it is for you. If we as Free Americans start letting Big Brother tell us what we can and cant do in our own homes, what’s next? Do we get injected with microchips to, so that Big Brother can know what we are doing at all times? These officials only want to please the haters that think we are a bunch of freaks, they care less about our freedoms. I see this for what can happen, just remember if we want to keep our hobby, we have to voice our opinion as load as we can. Let me make something clear, I fought like a wild cat to keep the AL State Government from passing such stupid laws, so to the poster that said the deference between him and us is that he makes he’s voice known, think again, you are not the only one to open up and scream your opinion. I wrote letter after letter to our State Officials and it done no good. So if you think they wont take away what is valuable to us, think again, like I said before, they care less............Be safe ya’ll, happy herping Wally
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by LarryDFishel on January 6, 2005
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Taphillip,
Again, on principal, I believe this country needs less regulation, not more, period, and we should never give an inch without getting something in return. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that.
As far as drivers licenses, that's worlds apart. Driving is infinitely more dangerous to people other than the one making the mistake. 35-40,000 people a year die in this country and you can still get a driver's license in a couple hours in most states (most of that time waiting in line). You could probably save HALF of those people if you made people wear helmets while driving, but there would be violent revolt if you passed a law like that because people wouldn't want to mess up thier hair just to save their lives. But you'll support a law that puts tighter restrictions on our hobby with, to the best of my knowlegde, ONE documented case of a bystander being harmed? (And that was the result of someone who was violating several laws that were already in place), Imagine if a state proposed a $5000 fine for having an expired auto registration! Would you say "well, at least that's better than forcing us to take the bus, so lets go with it before they do something worse"?
All the bites I've heard of recently have been one of two varieies. 1) Responsible, law abiding handlers who screwed up, who wouldn't have been effected in any way by this law. 2) People who were already breaking the law and had snuck in snakes they weren't allowed to have, and so probably wouldn't have been affected in any way by this law (except for getting a big fine AFTER it was too late).
Oops, I'm ranting...
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by stopgetinpopped on January 6, 2005
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Larry,
I only used the drivers license as an extreme because you used an extreme example with the gun law...
The fact remains, like it or not, laws are-a-comin.
The hobby can either be involved or not. Hopefully a little involvement from the responsible members of the hobby will help reduce the stupidity of many laws. If it weren't for a couple of us in this case, it would have been banned completely. Now at least there will be some sense of intelligence involved in the regulation.
As far as the health cert. correct is only involved in the import to the state. Which is not too much to ask, even though we all know most vets don't know which is the biting end and which is the poopin end.
What they wanted in those regs was simply to be informed as to what people are keeping. To inform the local emergency personal as to what they can expect in responding to any situations in that household.
Also, to have some preperation involved for treatment should a mistake be made. this is plainly stated as a bite protocol and antivenom available.
The fines involved were specifically set that high because the regulation is very easy to abide by and stupid to not abide by. So you can either abide readily or go broke by breaking the law. It makes perfect sense.
In other areas getting caught illegally with those animals is a very minor offence, so why would anyone comply? In ND the penalty is severe enough to make people voluntarily comply.
Hey, nothing will ever be perfect when regulation is involved... so whats a guy to do? Certainly can't ignore it all...
Taphillip
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by LarryDFishel on January 6, 2005
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Locking cages in a locked room, great.
Bite protocols, great idea, and I don't even mind if it's required. That accomplishes something tangible and costs virtually nothing.
Notify the hospitals, same, as long as that information cannot be made public, otherwise you might as well be a registered sex offender in some neighborhoods.
Stiff fines for keeping hots if you're not cleared to do so, I don't like on principal, but I could live with. But the way this is written, if you had a large collection and simply missed puting a chip in one, or bought a snake that supposedly had a chip but didn't, you get a bigger fine than if you got caught driving a stolen car on the wrong side of the road at 100 miles an hour while stoned. If there's some logic in that I fail to see it.
Like you say, the health certificate is basically pointless and serves no purpose but to make it more difficult for law abiding keepers to keep.
While I see the reasoning behind the chip (mostly to track down the owner of any escaped hots), it's actual effect will be mostly the same, an extra burden on law abiding keepers to cover the unlikely event that a snake escapes a locked cage and a locked room. All the escaped hots I've ever heard of were from people who weren't following the laws already in place.
To summarize my rambling position:
$5000 for keeping dangerous animals without a permit...not totally unreasonable.
$5000 for failing to poke a hole in a perfectly good snake that you have every right to keep otherwise...absolutely insane.
I should probably point out that if I sound...harsh...that's mostly not directed at you, but at the people who make this even an issue simply because of their own fears or political purposes. Though I do agree with what someone else said about your comment on making our voices heard. I know from experience on other subjects that when everyone makes their voices heard, the politicians will pick out the ones who most closely match their purposes, put them forth as representative of the community as a whole, and ignore the rest, so the fact that they called you may not mean what you think it means.
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by stopgetinpopped on January 6, 2005
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You don't like the ID chip? How about the photographs. All they ask for is a means of identifying the snakes. the ID chip and the photographs are all just reasonable possibilities. However, the way it is written is so that the animals may be identified properly without the owner. In case of death, abandonment etc.
The health cert. Is the main part that I don't see any great relevance...but hey it's not that big of a deal to me. I think that is mainly so the state has an idea of what animals are coming into the state. Many states actually already require that, it is just a rather unenforcable....no biggie...for lack of a better word.
As far as the hospitals etc and not being made public and all. There would be no reason to make it public? It is for informative purposes for your safety in the event of a bite. ( hopefully one would develop a relationship with said doctor and encourage him/her to research particular species envenomation.
Also, to protect emergency responders.....
Taphillip
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RE: ND lawmakers....long sorry
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by LarryDFishel on January 6, 2005
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Pictures sound like a decent idea, but as worded it's EXTREMELY vague as to when you can get away with just pics, or who makes that decision. If the keeper decides and the authorities disagree...$5000. If they decide, then that means having to have them inspect every specimen you get and make a determination, plus leaving an opening for them to always say the patterns are not distinct enough to rely on pictures.
As far as the hospital having no reason to make the info public, it's not necessarily the hospital itself I'm worried about (they generally have a pretty good record for privacy). To go back to gun control for an example. There are several places in the U.S. that passed laws providing for permits to carry concealed weapons (where concealed was flat out illegal before), where the people pushing for the law agreed to the personal information of the permit holders being kept by a particular agency only to find out later that that info was subject to FIOA requests and certain local papers made a point of requesting this info and publishing the names and addresses of people in thier area with permits, because they believed that gun owners are dangerous to the community, and so their neighbors have a right to know about them.
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