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11-17 of 17 messages
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RE: Venom Extraction Pumps
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by Cro on May 16, 2006
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Alex:
I will find the material for you and send it.
Give me a day or two.
Best Regards JohnZ
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Do not use on cytotoxic bites
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by Flaviceps on May 19, 2006
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The study showed that, while they can get a little bit of venom out, the hickey they give just makes the local tissue damage worse, and it's a net loss. So I wouldn't use it on any kind of viper bite, or something necrotizing like Naja naja or siamensis.
That said, even if it's useless, I doubt it does much harm in the case of purely neurotixic bites without local effects, and it might even do some good.
(Hemhorragic venoms are a more interesting question. Since the venom CAUSES clotting, thereby using up the clotting factors, it's not obvious that the hickey would pose a problem.)
But for a purely neurotoxic venom, we KNOW pressure immobilization does a world of good, so that should be your first priority. Also, while three minutes is reasonable for a "legitimate" wild encounter, a herper in a hot room with first aid gear readily accessible can respond a lot faster. I know when I got bit I had the bandage going on within 15 seconds, and the second layer in 30. A few seconds of "oh shit", drop the snake, close the lid, turn and grab the bandage off the wall, start unrolling it. It'll be 60 seconds before I can get to the extractor, but it won't be three minutes.
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RE: Do not use on cytotoxic bites
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by Cro on May 19, 2006
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Flaviceps: You repeated what has often been stated, but if you read Bush`s own study, you will find that the Extractor only caused slight local tissue damage in 2 out of 10 cases.
It bothers me that Bush goes around saying flatly that the Extractor causes tissue damage, but his own studies show that it only happens in 20% of the cases.
It also bothers me all the folks who are so quick to say Dr. Bush said this, or Dr. Bush said that, and they dont know the whole story. I think there is a bit of TV hero worship going on.
Don`t get me wrong, it I had a snake bite, I would sure call on him for treatment due to his experience, and the lack there-of in other doctors, BUT, with TV, we see on Venom ER the poor snake-bitten patient dying there, and the befuddled Dr. who does not know what to do. So in rides Dr. Sean Bush, on his classic Mustang, out of the California desert, pony-tail flapping in the wind, to save the day. And all in only 30 minutes of air time! Shades of Marcus Welby, or Doogie Houser, or House! Shades of TV hero worship.
I am sure that Bush is a very fine snake-bite doctor. There are many more fine snake-bite doctors in the country, like Dr. Findley Russell, who was treating snakebites while Dr. Bush was still in diapers.
I would just suggest to people here that they actually pull up Dr. Bush`s research and read it before they quote from it.
Just some random thoughts to stir things up.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Do not use on cytotoxic bites
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by Snake18 on May 19, 2006
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John, You must admit that that Mustang looks pretty good :) I mean...I wouldn`t mind owning one :D
Also, I have a "poney-tail" and I was offended at your remark LOL :) Just kidding ;)
Seriously now, I agree, everyone should get the papers cotaning the results of the studies performed, if not the full-lenght papers at least the abstracts. Stop using anecdotal information to back up your statements!
Everyone should read the paper about the "Venom X" aparatus used on puff adder bitten rabits. If the envenomations were subcutaneus all the rabbits lived thanks to that device. On the other hand...when the bite was IM all the rabbits died.
Take care!
Best regards,
Alex S.
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