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Does canebrake exists?
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by crotalus17 on October 3, 2006
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I have seen many people refer to the Canebrake Rattlesnake, but thought it to actually be the Timber rattlesnake. From my understanding, they refered to some Timber rattlesnakes as Canebrakes before the 70s, and now realize its all the Timber. Anyone have anymore info?
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by Cro on October 3, 2006
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John, go back and read this post from last year:
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/forums/Experts/15410
Hope this helps.
Best Regards, JohnZ
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by tj on October 3, 2006
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It depends on the person. I'll always seperate canebrake's (Ga for instance) and timber's (NY for instance) for different locales. Some do, some don't.
The state of Virginia seems to keep both, and not stick with just horridus.
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by Cro on October 3, 2006
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Here is another old discussion on the timber / canebrake contriversey:
http://www.venomousreptiles.org/forums/Experts/12957?page=1
To me they will always be different snakes. That is because they have different habits, live in different habitats, eat different foods, have different colorations and patterns, as well as body shape, and have different behaviors.
For now, they are all considered to be the same animal, based on mitochondiral DNA research.
Here is the problem I have with DNA research. It shows similaritys in certain animals, and if there are enough similaritys, we say the animals are the same, and ignore all the morphological and behavioral differences.
But the DNA is never an exact match, it is a ``statistical match`` of similar traits. It is like saying that a timber and a canebrake are the same, becaues there is only a 5% difference in the DNA. If it were 6% they would be considered different animals. So we are dealing with a mathmatical formula and because of small 1% or 2% differences, we are saying that an animal is or is not a seperate sub-species.
Who was it who decided that 6 degrees of seperation is significant, but 5 degrees of seperation is not ? The point I am trying to make is that DNA is the new ``gee-whiz`` science, and we are very quickly using it to change the classification of animals.
DNA does not take into account that there are behavioral, habitat, feeding, pattern, body size and shape differences between canebrake and timber rattlesnakes.
To me the canebrake will always be a southeren swamp rattlesnake, and the timber will always be a mountain rattlesnake, no mater what the DNA says. That would apply to the snakes I have seen in Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, North Carolina, Kentucky, and Tennassee.
As far as populations west of those states, there could be a clinal variation that makes all the western types basically the same animal.
Should be fun to watch how these animals are classified in the future.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by Chance on October 4, 2006
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Funny thing about those "southern swamp canebrakes".... I live in Arkansas, arguably in the range of the canebrake, yet they're mainly found in higher elevations here. So, I wouldn't generalize that all southern 'canebrakes' are swamp dwellers whereas all northern timbers are mountain dwellers. If so, that puts a damper on the whole canebrake hypothesis anyway.
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by Cro on October 4, 2006
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Chance, there are populations of rattlesnakes found in the higher elevations of Arkansas that at first glance you would want to call Canebrake Rattlesnakes. We have the same thing here in North West Georgia.
These snakes look much like Canebrakes. And it is tempting to not call them Timber Rattlesnakes because they do not look like the Green, Black, or Yellow ``classic`` Timbers.
I would suggest though that there is more to the story than just the way a snake ``looks.`` If we consider where the snake is found, and what it eats, scale counts, and its behavior, it is not very Canebrake at all, it really starts to match the Timbers.
When I see one of these mountain Canebrake looking rattlesnakes, I call it a Timber Rattlesnake because I am looking at more than just its coloration. There are differences in head shape and length and width, as well as contrast of pattern and number of bands on the body.
If we go to Klaubers Rattlesnake Books, we find that Timber Rattlesnakes have bands that do not contrast sharply with the background color ( this is what I see in these Canebrake looking timbers ), where as Canebrake Rattlesnaks have much more contrast between the crossbands and the background color ( this is what I see in my ``Swamp Rattlers``).
Also, we see that in Timbers the dorsal scale rows average 23, where as in Canebrakes they average 25 scale rows.
If we look at ventral scutes, we see 167 in male Timbers, and 171 in male Canebrake Rattlesnakes.
If we look at body chevrons or crossbands, we wee that Timber Rattlesnakes have from 15 to 34, and average 23, and in Canebrake Rattlesnakes we have 21 to 29 crossbands, and average 25.
So there are many differences besides color that might seperate a Timber Rattlesnake from a Canebrake Rattlesnake besides just its Canebrake look.
Next time you catch one of those Arkensas mountain ``Canebrakes``, try keying it out with scale counts and body-band counts, and see what you come up with. I am betting it will key out being a Timber more than a Canebrake. Let us know here the results you get.
You live in the far Western part of the snakes range, and there are folks like Manny Rubio who have suggested that there needs to be a third race recognised for the Western populatins. Perhaps some day that will be the case.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by tj on October 4, 2006
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"So, I wouldn't generalize that all southern 'canebrakes' are swamp dwellers whereas all northern timbers are mountain dwellers."
In Va, there is quite a difference between the typical timber's you find throughout the state, especially the Appalachians, and the "canebrake" you find only in the Southeastern portion of the state, near Va Beach.
I'm thinkng that is why the State itself differentiates the two. I've always found that canebrake's have more pronounced occular ridge's. But, I'm also an idiot, and that maybe why I'm stubborn and refuse to isolate them to horridus horridus. Different scales, different ridges, different habitat, different coloration, different venom composition, and different sexual maturity, tells me they are a sub of the species.
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by thedude on October 4, 2006
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C. horridus is totally absent in the piedmont of VA. The ecology of the two populations (SE coastal plain and mountain) is markedly different but the species is the same. In VA the SE population retains sub-species status mostly for conservation issues (the SE pop, "canebrake" is very rare and declining and is listed as state endangered).
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by FLherp on October 4, 2006
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Morphology varies, consider humans. All the same species with differing morphologies. DNA is probably the more accurate gauge of speciation as it is based on something which is more readily demonstrated mathematically and very minute differences in genes can be expressed in many ways (again consider humans). The question of how much similarity yields the same or different species (subspecies) will still be decided by people and as such the same arguments will still be occuring many years from now.
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RE: Does canebrake exists?
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by bassteck76 on October 5, 2006
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Well I go off of what CNAH says for species.....otherwise its just a bunch of herpers and scientists going back and forth over and over again......CNAH has stated now (currently) only one species exists- Crotalus horridus....no more "canebreaks" and so on. Whether or not they show differences is not for debate.......they are all timbers.......just with different morphs, and so on just as was stated before.
www.cnah.org
That is the Taxa site for the US.
Richard
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