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There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by FlaSnakeHunter on September 6, 2007
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The ad is for "white lipped vipers" from "almight99"
I responded to this ad with:
"Why is your VR.org profile blank ? How much are you asking ? Can you provide sexed pairs ? Where are you located ? If necessary, can you ship ? Are you Delta certified ? Can you send pics ? Thanks in advance, Marty Huxstep (FlaSnakeHunter on VR.org)"
This is the email that I received in return:
"first off its guys like you who give this hobby a bad name where do you get off acting like i owe you an explanation my profile is blank because i want it that way i don't know the going rate for these i don't make my living off of snakes they are a hobby and pastime that's it they had babies i don't need them ok no I'm not sexing them and no I'm not with delta dash because its to far for me to run so if that's all you need for your investigation thanks for your interest but i wouldn't sell to someone like you anyway"
I simply copied and pasted the exact email that I sent and the response from "almighty99"...
You be the judge...
1) Was I out of line with my questions ?
2) Was I rude in any way ?
3) Were my questions not relevant to the subject matter ?
4) Based upon the scant information in the ad, were my questions justified ?
5) Does this behavior seem just a little suspect ? Perhaps a scam in the making ?
Now, regarding the reference to my character, I have been an avid herper for over 40 years, most of that time with venomous. During those years, I have done business with many of the prominent people in this industry who would be more than willing to attest to my character, such as Phillipe DeVosjoli (World famous Herpetologist, Author and Lecturer); Tom Crutchfield (noted industry expert); Eugene Bessette (Ophiological Services); RobRoy McInnes & Robbie Keszey (Glades Herp); Chris Clark (Solana Serpentarium); Jim Keenan (HomeGrown Herps); Wayne Hill (National Reptile Breeders Expo); and the list goes on and on. Recently, I have done business with Eric Marquette of Northshore Reptiles and Dan Scolaro of DTS Herps. I fastidiously maintain a collection of about 35 venomous snakes and have been maintaining a collection of this size for more years than I can remember. Additionally, I have had the pleasure of field herping in approximately 12 of our fantastic states. For me, this is more than a hobby, it is a passion and a way of life !!
Enough said, please contribute your thoughts as I was completely and utterly dumbfounded by the emailed response that I received.
Thanks for listening...looking forward to your responses...
Marty
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by CrotalusUSA on September 7, 2007
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dont' worry about it, marty. com on man, this is the reptile hobby, look at all the shady people out there anyways, lol.
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by rthom on September 7, 2007
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When someone react's to common question's such as your's I usually put my wallet away.I recently saw a "deal" and through a little "investigation" I found that the reliability factor of the person was shakey at best.
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by Cro on September 7, 2007
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Marty, while folks should always be cautious about the Classifieds, it would seem you might have went a bit overboard in your questioning.
Wanting to know who you are dealing with is always good, however, the webmasters here do not require folks to register as members or fill out profiles before they can advertise. ( I personally think this is a mistake, because it keeps true scammers from being banned from the site ).
Anyway, if you look at Steve`s Classified Ad:
"i have 18 newborns unsexed and ready to go can meet at hamburg tomm 9/8 will trade for other hots or sell"
He was telling folks what he will have available at Hamburg. He clearly states the number, the type of animal, that they are unsexed, and that they will be at Hamburg.
From that we can assume that he does not want to sex the animals, that he does not want to ship the animals, that he does not have a price set yet, and is mostly wanting to Trade animals at that show.
You asked for our opinions, and mine is that while you were polite, and asked appropriate questions if you were dealing with a commercial reptile dealer, you might have asked a bit too much, and probably got off to a bad start by asking Steve why he had not filled out his profile.
I find it a bit funny to be defending someone in the Classifieds, as every week I delete several adds that are from the Camaroon and Ivory Coast Scammers, however, until the Webmasters decide to require membership and a filled in Profile, like on the main forum, I really see nothing wrong with Steve`s ad, although he probably could have worded it a bit better, and hopefully, he will learn that he might have better luck finding folks to trade or sell the snakes to, if he does fill in more information.
Botton Line is that folks who post Classifieds and appear to be hiding information will be viewed suspiciously.
Just my 3 cents worth (inflation).
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by FlaSnakeHunter on September 7, 2007
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John,
First, let me thank you for your comments and your opinions...
However, my questions simply asked IF he could do the things that I inquired about. In no way, shape or form was I rude, derogatory, arrogant, or pompous in my questioning. A simple and polite "no" would have sufficed and the interaction would have terminated with my thinking neither negative nor positive about this individual.
"i have 18 newborns unsexed and ready to go can meet at hamburg tomm 9/8 will trade for other hots or sell"
You are correct in your summary of his ad, however, he does NOT state that these terms are non-negotiable nor that they are the only terms by which a transaction could take place. Therefore, I would not want to make assumptions regarding what is, or is not, possible as all assumptions are only assumptions and, until further supportive data is ascertained, they are flimsy determinants. The only way to proceed past the assumptive stage is to ask questions, which is precisely what I did.
Furthermore, having owned several businesses and negotiating and structuring many deals ranging from a few hundred dollars to well over several million dollars, it is to be expected by "sellers" that questions regarding the deal will ensue. If those questions are proffered in a professional and respectful manner, there is absolutely no acceptable reason to expect that the "seller" would be offended.
I agree that he “was telling folks what he will have available at Hamburg. He clearly states the number, the type of animal, that they are unsexed, and that they will be at Hamburg. “
You go further by stating “From that we can assume that he does not want to sex the animals, that he does not want to ship the animals, that he does not have a price set yet, and is mostly wanting to Trade animals at that show.”
John, our opinions differ insofar as:
1) I cannot conclude that he does not want to sex the animals...I can only conclude that they are currently unsexed.
2) I cannot assume that he does not want to, or cannot, ship these animals, only that he plans to have them at Hamburg. However, for the record, my intent, based upon his answers to me, would have been to purchase all 18 of the Cryptelytrops, thus saving him from transporting any of them to Hamburg and also circumventing the very real possibility of having to also transport the unsold individuals back from Hamburg.
3) I cannot assume that he does not have a price in mind, after all, he says that he is willing to sell and in order for a sales transaction to be consummated there must first be a selling price agreed upon. I was simply asking for a price.
4) I also cannot conclude that he "is mostly wanting to Trade animals at that show" because he clearly and succinctly states that he "will trade for other hots or sell", i.e. trade or sell, neither of which displays or implies a tacit preference.
You continue by stating that "you might have asked a bit too much, and probably got off to a bad start by asking Steve why he had not filled out his profile." In order to purchase these animals, anyone would need to know the price; shipping availability and shipping specs; sex ratios; location of the seller (if he was located near me, I would be willing to travel a few hundred miles, as I have done at least 6 times during 2007); visual inspection via pics (purchase of animals should never be done sight unseen, unless you are very familiar with the seller, whether a commercial entity or an individual). My asking of the omission of his VR profile was prompted by the prevalence of the same with many of the scammers who have lurked in this and other forums...i.e. Caveat Emptor !! I have been burned 3 times with reptile deals, all of them in online transactions and they have all started with the seller being highly defensive from commencement of the deal. Shame on me if I do not at least do some "due diligence".
John, you went on to say “You asked for our opinions, and mine is that while you were polite, and asked appropriate questions if you were dealing with a commercial reptile dealer, you might have asked a bit too much, and probably got off to a bad start by asking Steve why he had not filled out his profile.” Help me understand this…from his ad, one cannot determine whether he is an individual or a commercial entity and, regardless of this status, how does that change the “due diligence” requirement that each and every buyer should perform before committing funds to the deal ? Moreover, my asking about the status of his profile was done politely, half thinking that he was not aware of it and the other half thinking that he was new to VR.org; however, in no way should it have elicited his response…it is a reasonable and bona-fide question that each and every one of us has a right to ask. His correct response would have been to say that he preferred to leave it blank and not to lambast me and attempt to assassinate my character for having asked.
I think that each and every one of us who values this industry/passion/hobby are personally responsible for the policing of every aspect of the same, from licensing to possession, litigation to legislation. To do less than this jeopardizes everything for all of us.
Thanks again…
Looking forward to continuing discussions.
Marty
PS – Interestingly, the ad in question has been removed. Hmmm…was that done by VR.org or by the submitter, almighty99 ??
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by EPARR1 on September 7, 2007
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I replied to this ad and he was polite and seemed legit. I don't think this is a scam ad. I'm sorry didn't read all the posts. this is my personal opinion after talking with the guy.
Eric G.
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by FlaSnakeHunter on September 7, 2007
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John, et. al....
Apparently my gut feelings were correct about this individual...I just received an email from another VR.org member that states...
"Hi
I'm ***** on the shhs page. The dude lives's in a
state where hots are illegal. That's why he was not
forth coming with the answers. He Tried to sell the
lot to a friend of mine. This guy thought he had a
gold mine ,but found out the wholesale price from
Indonesia is 8.00 or so, he got a little pissed.
I'll be at Hamburg tomorrow and the October show as
well."
Now I understand why I received the impudent response from "almighty99" !!
To all...ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS...ask questions, do not be afraid to be assertive, keep it polite and professional. Sometimes what you are not told proves to be the definitive determinant.
NOW, to "almighty99" if you are reading this thread, who is it that is making a bad name for the industry ??
Thanks all,
Marty
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by EPARR1 on September 7, 2007
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I will add to that reply. When I emailed him he seemed more interested in trading in person for venomous in person at the hamburg show. I offered to buy 6 he told me to make an offer. So he will seperate and maybe he's not sure what to ask for a price.
Someone not wanting to sex baby white lipped vipers doesn't surprise me since most of the people keeping them are novice keepers. Like myself ofcourse :) I personally wouldn't sex the babies either.
I didn't feel this ad was or is a scam.
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RE: There's an ad in the Classifieds... BEWARE !!
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by EPARR1 on September 7, 2007
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Even if he is in a state where they are illegal doesn't mean he scaming anyone. so your gut feeling is still not correct. If he brings them to hamburg all is well. Correct?
I'm not saying by anymeans it is right to keep hots where illegal. Please don't take it that way. I'm just saying he has the snakes will meet you at hamburg to sell them to you where is the scam?
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