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Reptile domestication?
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by tigers9 on November 30, 2008
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On another animal list, we just started the thread regarding ‘domestication’ and what domestication definition is, since many recent animal bans only exempt domestic animals only lately.
It got me thinking, if one finds scientific definitions of domestication, it mostly applies to mammals.(Russian fox experiment, etc…)
I still would like to know how you folks define ‘domestication’, and most notably, how would a future domesticated reptile/hot snake be different than current ones, whether wild caught or captive bred.
I mean how much tamer or safer can a Box turtle, Green Tree Frog, etc. be compared to any domestic dog, horse, bull…???
How can one domesticate a venomous snake, what would it take to make it domesticated, aka, exempt from bans?????
Z
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RE: Reptile domestication?
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by Cro on November 30, 2008
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Z, I really do not think that Venomous Snakes can be domesticated, even after many, many generations of captive breeding.
They might loose some of their instinctive behaviors over time, however, they will still go back to those behaviors if they are injured, or feel threatened.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Reptile domestication?
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by LarryDFishel on November 30, 2008
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More importantly, the people who write such bans only use the word "domesticated" because it is a convenient dividing line between the animals they are willing to allow people to keep and those that they are not.
If a line of "domesticated" venomous snakes could be selected, they would just work on rewording the bans and face very little opposition.
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RE: Reptile domestication?
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by pitbulllady on December 1, 2008
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"Domestication" implies that SOMETHING about the animal has been altered, through generations of selective breeding by humans, to suit OUR wants. This does not necessarily mean that the animal's BEHAVIOR has been changed, since often this involved appearance. I would certainly consider an "Opal" Corn snake to be domesticated, as is a Salmon Hypo BCI, although behaviorally, they are no different from a WC or first-generation captive-bred animal. Mink raised on fur farms are just as nasty-tempered and prone to biting as wild mink; they just come in more colors, and they've been domestically-bred for far more generations than any reptile. However, if behavior, rather than just looks, is what breeders select for, then you'll see changes in that, too. A Russian experiment with fur farm foxes a few decades ago showed how quickly changes can occur; in just a few generations, foxes selectively bred for a gentle disposition(to prevent bites to fur farm workers)had become as easily-tamed as any dog, and physical changes became apparent, too, with floppy ears, curly Husky-like tails, piebald markings, blue eyes, short legs, etc. We consider cats to be domesticated animals, yet cats readily and easily revert to a wild state("feral")if abandoned, and anyone who's tried to get their hands on even a kitten only a few weeks old that's never been handled by humans can attest to the fact that cats are only one step away from being wild animals, despite their history of domestication. Ditto for certain dog breeds, like Akitas, who require intensive early socialization to be compatible with humans. Pigs, too, readily shake off the domestic label and return to a wild state, not only altering their behavior, but the physical appearance of an individual pig will change, with its snout becoming longer and pointier, within a few weeks of escape.
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RE: Reptile domestication?
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by tigers9 on December 1, 2008
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well, on wolf list where this started, other examples of domestications were that while wolf comes into estrus only in spring, seasonal breeders, once a year, domesticated counterpart, aka dog, can do it throughout the year. Also, domesticated dog looks different than wolf for most dog breeds, etc...
On the other hand, lions can breed anytime of the year if necessary,...
Also fight or flight reactions, ...
Seems like different people go by different definitions of what they see as 'domestication'
Z
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RE: Reptile domestication?
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by pitbulllady on December 1, 2008
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Many dog breeds, including the Basenji and the true Japanese Akita Inu, only come into heat once a year as well, usually in the fall. In most dogs, being able to come into estrus at any time during the year, twice a year, is one of the things they've been selectively bred for, hence generally a domestic trait. However, I've had New Guinea Singing dogs come into heat twice a year, also Carolina Dogs, both considered true feral dogs(many generations removed from "tame" dogs or selection by humans). Female cougars, like domestic cats, can come into season every 23 days if not bred, all year round, so in the case of cats, it's more of a survival thing rather than a man-made artificial selection. Still, to be domesticated, there must be SOME change, either in appearance, reproductive biology or behavior, from the wild ancestor that benefits US moreso than the animal itself. It might be something as simple as aesthetics; people tend to selectively breed for traits in animals that appeal to us, appearance-wise, or as complex as reproductive biology and behavior. I also believe that there are varying degrees of domestication, which have not so much to do with the duration of time with humans, as what we domesticated that species for in the first place. Cats have not really changed that much, because they didn't need to. They weren't expected to pull sleds, guard flocks of sheep, point quail, retrieve ducks, herd cattle or protect families from intruders, so their changes are much more superficial than those in dogs. Snakes aren't really expected to do anything other than look pretty, so that's really all that is changing in them as a result of selective, or domestic, breeding.
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RE: Reptile domestication?
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by Cro on December 1, 2008
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Long, long ago, it was much easier.
Wild animals were wild, and domestic animals were tame.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: Reptile domestication?
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by najasuphan on December 2, 2008
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Animal domestication is really such a cryptic idea when you really pick it apart. What really constitutes domestication anyways? I know, changing it in some manner or another to suit the needs we set for it in captivity is a generalization of it. I have a dog that is 13 years old, and on occasion when you get near him while he has a bone or food he could get aggressive. He has snapped at me twice during that scenario during his lifetime. Does that mean that he is not domesticated? He has also peed on the carpet a few times too, which they also shouldn't do if they're domesticated, right?. I have also been bitten by cats, birds ferrets, and who knows what else. Is it possible for them to not be domesticated either? For reptiles I'll use my Forest Cobras as an example because I got them as young adults and I have noticed a marked difference in their behavior. The male hasn't been too bad but the female was a different story. Initially she was insane. When you would walk into the room she would sit and watch and if you messed with her cage at all, it would send her into a rage. She would hood and as soon as you would open the cage she would charge at the opening with her mouth gaped open, with an obvious intention of killing something. Now, after I have had her for about a year and a half, she has calmed down remarkably. I honestly haven't seen her hood in months. When I have to remove her for cage cleaning she gives me a couple of huffs when I touch her tail, just to let me know she doesn't appreciate it, and when I hook her out of the cage she just sits there. Not that I would really ever test her but there has been a complete 180 with her temperament. In addition, most of my snakes start swallowing their prey as soon as they grab it. I don't ever try feeding them live, aside from the fact that I like feeding f/t, because I am afraid they would try and just swallow it, which I have witnessed with a cottonmouth trying to swallow a live mouse, without trying to kill it, before. So, I think when a ban is put put into place that exempts all "domesticated" animals, it is definitely a little too broad and non-descriptive, because to me my snakes are domesticated. Through interactions they have become accustomed to life in captivity. On dictionary.com one of their definitions, most of them involve the word tame, of domesticate are "to convert (animals, plants, etc.) to domestic uses." To me, that implies that something is accustomed to living in a home, or in captivity. I think that is a fairly accurate description of the behaviors of all of my snakes, and I'm sure many other people have noticed this with their own snakes and other animals. Now, does that make venomous snakes good, loving pets that you can trust, when you pick them up or pet them, to not hurt or kill you? Absolutely not, because the risks and consequences far outweigh the benefits. Animals can all be unpredictable at times, as everyone knows, so maybe none of them are truly "domesticated." Sorry about the novel but it agitates me to no end when people who know nothing about these animals, the people that are passing these bans, have the power to take away something that has been a part of my life, and my interest, longer than just about anything else.
-Jamie
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