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venomoids for learning?
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by tnblader on December 5, 2008
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just a question I know most people hate the fact of surgically altering snakes but isn’t it a safer way to learn I mean hell you take a bit from a cobra or something and cant obtain antivenin you die if its a venomoid you learn no to be so stupid and don’t let it happen again once u have a full understanding you just pass on the learning tools to the next person interested that way the casualties drop and the keepers grow right? It makes sense to me but some of you all out there have more experience and knowledge than me so just a thought/question all opinions thought critical remarks welcome I am just trying to get a thorough opinion
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by theemojohnm on December 6, 2008
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Fist of all, a "venomoid" serpent is not 100% safe, as most of these are done by "backtyard vets", and I do even consider Venomoid Inc. to be "amateur" surgeons, as this is not a "standard" procedure, and is not widely accepted (for good reason I might add).
Let me ask this: What on earth would a snake that has been surgically mutilated (which is STILL not completely safe) teach you, that a non-venomous snake, that has NOT been surgically altered , teach you???!!!
A "venomoid" is comparable to a corn snake, Ball Python, or any other non-venomous snake. Some bite, some do not. It all depends on that snakes perspective of you at any given time. If a snake feels threatened, it will either run and hide, or bite, the "Flight or Fight Response".
Contrary to popular belief, non-venomous snakes behave no differently than venomous snakes (each species displaying unique behaviors, of course). It is 100% possible to "free-handle" venomous snakes in much the same way you would a Ball Python, or other non-venomous species. But, the only risk associated with a venomous species, is of course, that it's venomous! This, by far, is the dumbest risk that can be taken, but there are morons who do. And this is why they do not post here, as they endanger the hobby, and receive NO respect by fellow keepers who do thing the CORRECT way.
There is no rule that says ANY venomous species is naturally more "aggressive" than ANY non-venomous species, so why buy a mutilated snake???!!!
People often "train" with "aggressive" non-venomous species, to get acquainted with the tools needed to safely handle venomous snakes, but why buy a venomoid when a HEALTHY non-venomous snake will serve the same purpose???!!!
Bottom line, the is NO REASON for people to posses "Venomoid" snakes, unless the are trying to show off, because they feel that owning such an animal makes them "Cool".
Whatever benefit you get from "learning" from a venomoid snake is the same that you will get from any non-venomous species, so why buy an unhealthy, "mutilated” animal???!!! NO snake will prepare you for a "fully-loaded" venomous specimen, and can only, at best, get you acquainted with using the proper tools and handling techniques for venomous specimens. So, why not use a healthy, non-venomous species, and treat it as though it were venomous to become acquainted with the tools associated with the venomous hobby? As opposed to a “mutilated "Venomoid" snake for the same purpose???!!!
Take Care,
~John Mendrola
(Pennsylvania Woodland Herpetological).
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by Cro on December 6, 2008
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Very well stated John !
What I would ad, is that when learning to work with venomous snakes, one of the best things you can do is get Mentoring from a experienced venomous reptile keeper.
A experienced keeper will be able to show you how to safely work with venomous snakes, and how to use the tools of the trade, like snake hooks, and tongs.
A venomoid snake will do nothing to make you a safer venomous snake keeper, will probably make you less careful, and might even get you killed.
It was not long ago that we posted here a video by Kentucky Reptile Zoo, which shows them milking several "venomoid" cobras. Well, guess what ? Those cobras produced venom !
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by ChuckHurd on December 6, 2008
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haha, Wade, you opened a real can of worms with this one. most users on this site are anti-void, so you are gona get some negative feed back. mostly you will hear they do not act like "real" venomous snakes and they are still dangerous, ect. some of what they will say holds water, some doesn't. far as how they act....the snake has no idea its glands are gone, so its acts just as it would normally act. only problem is, people handle the void like they would a non-venomous snake, so the snake, like most others, will become "tame." if a void is always handled like a hot, it will always act like a hot. voids are not very popular in the south, so i have not seen very many. a friend in my old hometown had void mon cobra. it acted like any mon cobra would. no difference at all. a friend locally has a void black pac....and it acts like any hot cobra i have ever seen. as you know, i have far more experience with rattlesnakes then i do cobras. i have only worked with one void rattler. it was an EDB and probably about 4.5 feet. i kept that one for a little while. she stayed right beside my hot EDB's and they all acted identical. so, i am not so sure the argument that they do not act like real hots holds water. however, there is some merit on the other arguments. its often claimed that the venom gland can regenerate, and that my be possible if the surgery was not done by someone who knows how to do it. if you get a snake done by Richie out in OR, you will not have any problems like that. there have been some cases of BAD infections set up by bites from voided snakes....so evidently there are at least some small amounts toxins just in the saliva. a good friend of mine, Jim Harrison, told me of a case where he was called in as an expert wittiness. someone was bitten by a void EDB and one of those infections i mentioned set up. turned into a pretty bad bite. there is so much misinformation about voids out there, i dont trust most of what i hear....but i have known Jim many years and i am confident, this can be a real problem with voids. jury is still out as to why this happens....may just the penetration of the fangs....guess we will see on that, but either way....even if there are no glands, one wants to avoid a bite from a snake with fangs.
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by theemojohnm on December 6, 2008
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"i am not so sure the argument that they do not act like real hots holds water."
I have NEVER heard of this argument. While behavior traits vary by species and genus, ALL snakes share many basic behavior traits.
Of course a Venomoid snake will act the same as a fully-loaded specimen of the same species. Even some fully venomous snakes get to the point where one might consider them "tame". The fact of the matter is, I do NOT feel that one can "tame" any snake.
Sure, snakes become accustomed to human interactions after some time. But trying to "put yourself on the animals level", mentally, one has to realize that the slightest things will trigger particular behaviors.
I think the quote "You can take the Snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the Snake" is appropriate here. There will always be instances where the animal will do something unexpected.
My point is, WHY ON EARTH you PAY for a surgically altered animal, likely suffering from the procedure even long after its done, that is STILL a potential danger NO MATTER WHO butchers the animal.
There are MANY nasty, non-venomous species that would serve the same purpose an "un-tamed" venomoid would!!!
While we all have our views on venomous (and I will not go any further into mine), set that aside for a minute and explain to me what purpose a venomoid snake for learning serves? I am very confused with that logic. There are non-venomous snakes that do not need to have the heads chopped up to acquaint you with the proper tools to safely handle real venomous snakes.
Take Care,
~John Mendrola.
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by tnblader on December 6, 2008
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all I was saying is that if you have a venomoid purchased from a reputable dealer you are half way safe there to my best of knowledge is no none venomous species that are the size and temperament of a king cobra-Ophiophagus hannah so all I am saying is if someone was going to start keeping cobras it would be a lot safer to get a venomoid treat it just like a hot and forget that it is a venomoid unless you screw up and get bit then you might not have to look for antivenin there are two sides to everything I personally think if the venom gland and duct are removed by a veterinarian in a animal hospital that the snake will probably never produce venom again but I also think a venomoid should never be handled like non venomous snake it should be treated just like a true hot and if that is done isn’t it kind of a safe way to ease into the hobby?
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by Cro on December 6, 2008
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The biggest problem with that theory is that it is very unlikely that the person keeping the venomoid will "Always" treat the snake like it was venomous.
Somewhere, in the back of their mind will always be the though that the snake is not dangerous, and that will lead them eventually to start taking chances, and developing dangerous husbandry practices.
Instead of using a switch box or shield, they will reach in and grab that water bowl from the cage, because "after all, it is a venomoid." Human laziness will eventually get the best of even the most dedicated keeper, and then they will have learned nothing.
Keeping a venomoid will not make you a safer venomous reptile keeper. If anything, it will make you more careless and more dangerous.
Best Regards
John Z
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by Buzztail1 on December 6, 2008
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Wade,
First and foremost, your posts are very difficult to read. The lack of periods and commas make it very hard to tell exactly what you are saying and I believe that you will miss out on a lot of valuable input because some people will try to read your posts, have difficulty understanding it and just blast back with the standard antivenomoid flack or not post back at all.
Second, it is my belief that keeping venomoids will teach you - how to keep venomoids. You can check back in the archives here as far back as you like. I am not a proponent of keeping this snake or that snake to prepare you for keeping anything else. I believe that if you want a cobra, you study cobras and then get one. Study should include all the book learning that you can get as well as time working with a mentor who has the particular species that you want. I never said it was easy. But, if your "trainer" venomoid bites you, or your "trainer" coachwhip, or whatever, that does not "train" you to deal with a real mamba/cobra/puff adder/gaboon viper/or whatever that the whole world seems to be trying to find shortcuts in preparing to keep.
And then, once you have successfully kept that venomoid for a week/month/year and you decide that it is boring and the same as keeping a corn snake, what happens to it? Check our classifieds! They show up in cycles. They are probably the most passed around and resold snakes in the business.
No-one here can stop you from getting a venomoid.
The answer to your question is that you can learn basic snake husbandry from a venomoid.
You can learn that from a corn snake.
Just my own personal opinion.
R/
Karl
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by pictigaster1 on December 6, 2008
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There is a guy here in Lubbock Texas.This guy removes the tip of the maxiliary bone so fangs do not rotate into position.It works I know people who have these snakes for years . They get them because they want a fancy boa to carry around there neck.I believe as all others in this string.A venomoid will not teach you to be a safe keeper.ONCE A LADY BOUGHT A GRAVID ATROX AND WAS SO EXCITED ABOUT ALL THE LITTLE VENOMOID NEONATES SHE WAS GOING TO HAVE.It broke her heart to find out she could not hold the babies.There are hot people they know who they are.there are corn, boa, ball,and many other herp keepers out there.All have there place.When a person is ready for the real deal they would not dream of changeing a thing about there snake.Most of us freak out when a snake misses a meal or has a stuck shed.MAN OH MAN .Just try to come at one of there snakes with a scalpul.
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RE: venomoids for learning?
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by stopgetinpopped on December 6, 2008
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Even Most qualified Veterinarians don't have the grasp of the physical structure of the venom delivery apparatus. Often times they can't differentiate between the muscles that surround the glands and ducts from the glands and ducts themselves. So basically they don't remove everything.
It would take an exotic Reptilian Veterinarian Specialist on a good day with no human errors to render one close to harmless... Even then I would never trust someone I don't know to tell me the snake is safe...Is there anyone in your life that you trust that much? How about a stranger?
Cheers,
T-
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