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“I Have A Crossing Question”
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by ALA_herp31 on October 6, 2005
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Has anyone ever heard of or seen a Wild cross between Gray Rat Snakes and Black Rat Snakes? The Rat Snake I caught last night showed an unusually dark Color for a Gray Rat Snake, its Head was Plain Black and the Black Color persisted at least 5 in. down the neck. Every other Gray Rat I have caught in this area had the normal Gray Color on the Head, this makes me think it could be a Gray X Black Rat Snake. I do have Pics of the Snake, I will Post them to let ya’ll see it. Then maybe I can get a better opinion on the possibility of a Cross between the Two Subspecies. It will be about a Week before I have the Pics Developed, so ya’ll bare with me. .................Be safe ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by cottonmouth on October 7, 2005
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sure, a few times. You guys might know parish coker from manning sc. He has many odd crosses from all species of rats.
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by earthguy on October 7, 2005
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If it was a wild snake, though, then it was more likely just a variation. Remember Darwin's postulates. His first postulate states that there are variations within populations. And there are definitely variations within populations (for example thre are isolated populations of totally black copperheads). In the wild there are prezygotic barriers between species and subspecies. Spatial, temporal, and behavioral differences between (sub)species usually prevent copulation and fertilization. It is possible, but ackham's razor states that the simpler answer is probably the best (i.e. that it is a Panterophis (Elaphe)obsoleta soiloides with a unique color morph).
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by timberrattlesnake89 on October 7, 2005
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I would say that most of the black rat snakes found in Central to North Georgia and Alabama are a cross between the too. If you look at a true Black rat they do not have te grey blotches that are found in the species around this area. True black rats then they usally do not have any pattern at all. Those are found more in the Northern States than down here in the south. On a another note I would also say that it is deffinatley possible for corns and rat snakes to cross. I would say that their would probally at least one that was caught in the wild. I do know they do it all the time in captivity.
Phillip
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by bush_viper17 on October 7, 2005
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I was also thinking that most of not all "black rats" found in Northern and central Georgia and Alabama are intergrades. I saw a few pure black rats in collections and photos and they are much darker than the ones that I find. I think northern and central Georgia and Alabama are in between the true black rats north of us and the true greys south of us.
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by ALA_herp31 on October 7, 2005
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I have always thought the same thing Jeremy and Phillip do, if the Gray and Black Rats are Crossing, who’s to say that the Black Rat we know in this area, couldn’t be a Intergrade between the Black and Gray Rat? I mean look at the Color differences between the Black Rat we have in North AL and the Color of the Specimens found further North of here, makes you wonder huuuu? This is just my opinion on the subject, but who knows? Made someone that knows more than we do can set in on this, it would be nice to know that Black and Gray Rats in the North GA and AL, are Breeding.....................................Be safe ya’ll, Happy Herping : Wally
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by Cro on October 7, 2005
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Joshua`s statement concerning Darwin`s postulates often applys to animal populations, and there are certanly color / pattern variations within the individual populations of black rat snakes, grey rat snakes, yellow rat snakes, and Texas rat snakes.
However, rat snakes are well known to have intergrade populations, and there is a huge overlap of the ranges of the black, grey, texas, and yellow rat snake. And everywhere these ranges overlap, you will find intergrade populations, which have all kinds of different combinations of colors and patterns.
The spatial, temporal, and behavioral barriers for the rat snakes are not as well defigned as in other species of snake, and do not seem to do much to keep the populations from interbreeding.
So while the snake Wally caught could be just a local color variation, it is just as, and probably more likely to be an intergrade.
In the case of rat snakes, I do not think they follow Darwin, and I do not think they shave with Ackham`s rasor!
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by cottonmouth on October 7, 2005
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we find many rats in sc that are green as a crayon. they come from the yellow rats crossing with the black.
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RE: “I Have A Crossing Question”
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by Cro on October 7, 2005
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If you look at the rat snake photos in Alan Tennant`s book ``Snakes of North America,``he has a lot of photos of intergrade rat snakes, and a good description of what is going on concerning intergradation with them at various parts of their range.
He also explains why old sub-species like the gulf hammock ratsnake ( williamsi ), and florida key ratsnake ( deckerti ), are now considered just variations of local populations of grey and everglades rat snakes.
He does, however, label photo 134b in his book as a ``pale-hued`` black rat snake. I sure would like to know where the snake was found, as to me it is clearly an intergrade of black and grey rat snake.
Overall, Tennant`s book is very good, but not as well known as the Conant and Audubon field guides.
JohnZ
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