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First hot question
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by Buzztail1 on September 18, 2006
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I struggle with this question on an almost daily basis.
Lots of people recommend this nonvenomous snake or that to prepare people for getting their first venomous snake.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this approach.
If you mess up and your water snake, bull snake, black racer, burmese python or whatever bites you, at worst you will have to disinfect a scratch.
If your first venomous snake "gets lucky", it could cost you your life. No? Okay, maybe I AM looking at the worst case scenario. It could cost you the use of your finger, hand, arm. It could cause you to feel pain for years after the actual bite. It could cause Social Services (or whatever the agency is called wherever you live) to come and investigate the safety of your home (or your parent's home) in preparation for removing any minors from the home. It could cause you neighbors to band together and try to force you to move out of your community. Over-reacting? I have personally met veteran snake keepers over the past few years that 1) are missing fingers 2) have hands misshapen like claws 3) have "ghost" pain more than 5 years after being bitten 4) are scarred for life (faciotomy) 5) had to get rid of all their animals even though it was legal to keep them to prevent child services from removing their children 6) and in at least the case of the mamba bite on the day of the first Daytona Venomous Show - his neighbors had ordnances passed to force him to move out. And, of course, there are all the ones that you read about in the paper who don't survive the bite.
There IS NO nonvenomous snake that prepares you for all of that.
People need to study the animal that they want to get. If possible, they should find someone who is keeping the same animal that they want and observe how it behaves and interacts with its keeper. Mentoring would be ideal but is clearly not always possible.
Keeping nonvenomous snakes did not prepare me for keeping venomous snakes. It prepared me for keeping snakes.
There is no magic pathway to becoming a safety conscious responsible adult. You have to work at it daily with the knowledge that a simple mistake could be disastrous. Read, study, learn as much as you can BEFORE you get your first snake. Never stop learning. The margin for error is just too slim.
Be careful.
Karl H. Betz
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RE: First hot question
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by RepFan on September 18, 2006
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Karl,
I agree with you wholeheartedly and respect your opinions and judgements greatly. I have never heard it put so well. You are right we get this question a lot in this hobby and have many articles on our site pertaining to the subject. Like you said a person should research the species they are interested in and go from there. However, on the other hand though, I do in fact recommend certain nonvenomous species to aid the individual in question to get themselves acquainted with the mechanics of working the snakes with the hooks, tongs,etc. as I did earlier in the, "Pre-venomous", post. In that post the person stated that they have never kept snakes before so I suggested some snakes to start with. I would never recommend a person to go straight into hots without first having had previous experience in keeping nonvenomous before ever venturing into the hot hobby, and I hope others here would agree.
~ Todd
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RE: First hot question
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by earthguy on September 18, 2006
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Karl,
I disagree. I think that before anyone keeps a venomous reptile they should develop thier proceedures with a beligerant water snake. Why a beligerant water snake? Water snakes tend to be very aggressive (at least the ones I've had), they are very fast, they won't hesitate to bite, and their bites are pretty painful as far as non-ven bites go. If you can go through the process of handling a watersnake as if it were "hot", you BEGIN developing the skills necessary for handling, say, a cottonmouth. If you can't get your proceedures right, or if you decide you really just wanted to hold your "pet" snake the way I hold my rat snake, then a logical adult would come to the inevitable conclusion that keeping venomous snakes is not for them. This is a far better method of weeding out poor keepers than sending some poor sap to the hospital because they didn't see the need to learn how to properly handle and care for snakes in general before they went out and bought that full grown EDB.
No amount of "practice" will prepare you for every situation, but every ounce of preparation/ prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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RE: First hot question
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by Rob_Carmichael on September 18, 2006
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Read my post in the "pre venomous" thread and you'll see that I am thinking along the same lines as Karl. You can get the meanest Nerodia on earth and it is still a harmless snake; your head is telling you that even if you get bit, you'll be okay (but it does have some merits but not the end all in proper training). Sure, practicing proper hooking/tong/shield techniques with harmless is important but still not the same as when you apply these techniques to something that can kill you or cause a significant injury. When you pull out a feisty copperhead for the first time, the emotions are far different than working with the meanest water snake on earth. Everything is different. You might as well recommend to someone to lather your hands in snake feces and odor and work with a large chain kingsnake; frightening, yes, but still nothing compared to working with venomous species. Mentoring is always the best but not always possible. Much comes down to whether someone has the "right stuff" to keep venomous: maturity, resources, experience/knowledge, commitment and dedication, mastering the use of hooks/tongs/shields/etc with harmless species, etc. How often do first time buyers truly consult with a variety of experienced keepers? Very few. When I see breeders selling venomous species to folks that are obviously ill equipped to keep any venomous species, I just sort of cringe at where our hobby is going; too much breeding and not nearly enough adequate homes....now I'm getting off topic!
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
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RE: First hot question
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by tj on September 18, 2006
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I agree. Keeping a non-venomous will not prepare you for keeping a venomous snake. If you think it will, then you haven't handled enough venomous snakes. You're not going to act or handle the same way with a non-ven as you would a venomous, I don't care who you are. The only thing that will prepare you for a first hot is a mentor that will show you how to safely handle venomous. The whole water snake, coachwhip, yada yada, is worthless, the mindset isn't the same. It doesn't weed out anybody. If anything, it gives a person a false sense of security because they feel that if they can handle a water snake or coachwhip, then they are ready for a snake with different mannerisms, and much more potential for harm. I tried the non-hot approach, then got smart, and got a mentor.
It's the best thing for the snake and the keeper.
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RE: First hot question
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by Cro on September 18, 2006
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I agree with Karl, Rob, Todd, and Tom.
Non-Venomous snakes are great training for learning basic husbandry techniques and learning how to hook snakes into and from cages, and how to feed and care for captive snakes.
However, working with a fast, nasty tempered non-venomous snake really only teaches you how to work with fast, nasty tempered non-venomous snakes !
Just because you can work with a nasty tempered Nerodia does not make you ready to keep Cottonmouths ! And working with a nasty tempered Coachwhip Snake and not getting bitten does not mean that you are now C.J.P. Ionides, and should be keeping a Mamba or Forest Cobra !
Working with venomous snakes is best learned by watching and working with a Mentor or experienced venomous keeper, as he actually works with venomous snakes. It is nothing like trying to not get bitten by a fiesty water snake, black racer, or coachwhip !
The difference in emotions that Rob mentioned is very real, and is not something easily explained in print, but is something that you will experience the first time, and every time after, when you work with a venomous snake.
Read all you can, and learn all you can about the venomous snake you want to keep. Then read and learn more. Find a Mentor who actually keeps that snake, and watch them work with it. Ask them to show you how to work with it. Do not assume that since you were able to keep a Copperhead that you are now ready for a big Western Diamond-Backed Rattlesnake or Cottonmouth, or Gaboon Viper. Never stop learning when dealing with venomous snakes.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: First hot question
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by earthguy on September 18, 2006
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Certainly there is nothing like the real thing. But I still think that working with aggressive non vens is a very important first step. A newbie reading the above posts could very easily get the impression that there is no point in learning the proper techniques for keeping a snake. Just read some, grab a Gaboon Viper and get to work.
You know, I learned to drive on my parent's farm. Driving a beat-up pickup to the back 40 was VERY different than my first time driving through downtown Atlanta during rush hour. But that doesn't mean that the lessons that I learned on the farm weren't important. Wouldn't we much prefer that everyone with a driver's lisence (or a venomous snake) had lots of good experience BEFORE they got turned loose on the road?
There are such things as "beginners snakes". I know that's not a popular thought here, but for the sake of this hobby I would MUCH prefer a novice to make the bulk of their mistakes (and there will be plenty) on something that won't kill/maim them. I am sure that there are people who are very capable of keeping a Mamba as thier first snake, but they are few and far between.
Keeping a non-ven as a first snake isn't THE answer to learning about "hots", but it is a good first step.
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RE: First hot question
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by Cro on September 18, 2006
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Working with aggressive Non-Venomous Snakes will teach you that Snakes Can and Will Bite You, and that in its-self is a good lesson to be learned.
If that lesson is what it takes to make you awair that Venomous Snake Can and Will Bite You, so much the better.
However, you should have allready known that.
If you have to get chomped on by a pissed-off water snake to make you awair enough to be carefull with venomous snakes, maybee you should not be messing with venomous snakes in the first place.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: First hot question
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by snakeguy101 on September 18, 2006
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i disagree, i would certainly have to say that keeping a non- venomous that behaves somewhat like a hot snake could definatly have its advantages when you decide to move up to venomous, of course i am NOT saying that this should be the only step and does NOT give you immunity when working with hots but if there is a snake that can be treated as if it were hot, it can help you develope a proceedure or method when the snake MUST be handled. i also think that you should ask someone who has the snake that you are looking for and spending time observing it and researching it, this is by far the most important step but keeping a similar non- venomous snake too can't hurt.
best regards,
chris hartmann
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RE: First hot question
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by FLVenom911 on September 18, 2006
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Well, I disagree on that for the reason being that even if it is the meanest, nastiest nonvenomous snake, you know in the back of your mind you will live to see another day if you get bit, or if even the snake gets out and is loose. Like I recently said on another reptile forum, a Spilotes pullatus hitting the floor is nothing compared to a Dendroaspis viridis hitting the floor. If the Spilotes hits the floor, ok no problem, if the Dendroaspis hits the ground and that is your first experience with a pissed off Dendroaspis, **** will hit the fan and many problems will arise. I think the best way besides training with nonvenomous that people try to compare to a certain venomous species is to simply just be around the animals you would like to work with and learn their respective behaviors and their tendencies.
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