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RE: Needs yalls opinions.
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by SpikeyReptiles on September 27, 2006
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Ok first off how do you know my family doesnt deal with them??? Oya and as far as my full time job is called running a buisness,i run the buisness but the dad has the business license....Its funny never once have my puff adders ever struck at me there for i consider them docile(atleast mine)....I also find it funny that some of these people had venomous reptiles when they were younger then me and yet i seem to be the only one your saying this to...And just to let you know ive had 500hours of work time with venomous before i even got my first copperhead....And its also funny that your the second person that asked me whos gonna take care of my animals while im in college....Well lets see i can take classes online or at a local college and why does that matter to you anyways??? And telling me i have no buisness keeping venomous well thats just plain stupid....Just like some people telling me that i have no buisness breeding retics....And about the a/v i get it from a family friend of ours that keeps extra on hand for us....I gotta know is it just that you have no respect for younger people to keep venomous or do you just act like this to every one??? I knew there was a reason why i dont post much here cause it always seems that some one always has some thing negitive to say....
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RE: Needs yalls opinions.
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by GREGLONGHURST on September 28, 2006
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Chill out, man. None of the questions Rob has asked are out of line. His two main concerns are 1) Keeping you alive & 2)Making sure the venomous reptile community is not damaged by someone getting hurt or killed in it.
Whether one strikes at you or not, Bitis arietans is not a docile creature.
Personally, I would not recommend venomous to anyone who is not living under his or her own roof and of an age to legally enter into a contract. I should have looked at your profile before recommending A. taylori.
I'm sure you do not agree, but that's just the way it is.
~~Greg~~
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RE: Needs yalls opinions.
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by Rob_Carmichael on September 28, 2006
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Greg, I think Spikey just keeps opening his mouth and demonstrating why high school kids have no business keeping venomous. Recently, when folks ask for recommendations, I check their background info first to see if they are even of age. This kid is not old enough nor is he mature enough to handle this responsibility; BUT, I do wish him well and hope that nothing bad happens to him, or, our hobby (high school kid + keeping venomous snakes = bad press and more restrictive legislation). His lack of respect towards those who don't share his opinion, particularly professionals in the field, shows his very immature nature that doesn't bode well when keeping hot stuff. Sure, if his father is an experienced herp person with many years of venomous and teaching his child the proper techniques, that would be one thing but an experienced parent would not teach his son that a B.ariens is a "docile" pet. I have a lot of high school kids working for me so it's not a matter of me having it out for the youth of america; my wildlife center is all about youth, mentoring them, and teaching them proper and responsible herp keeping and field etiquette. Instead, it is my own personal philosophical belief that a high school kid has no business keeping venomous snakes. He continues to say that a puff adder is "docile"; that sums it up for me....Spikey, there's folks here who are willing to help you and mentor you but when you disrespect those who have been in the field professionally for a long time, you are burning your bridge with the wrong folks. Just something to keep in mind.
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by SpikeyReptiles on September 28, 2006
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Bad press huh....Well w/e you say....But bad press thats just funny....In the last 3 years ive done over 13 shows for schools and each one has been in the local newspaper with no bad comments....Well if you wanna call me bad press have at it as i will not be posting on these forums any longer....
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by Cro on September 28, 2006
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I really hate starting this thread, as it is going to piss off some folks here, but sometimes you have to stir the low-country boil !
Some of you have probably been reading the thread below started by Shayne ( Spikey Reptiles ) titled ``Needs yalls opinions.``
He started off asking about adding a venomous snake to his collection. After reading his profile which suggested he had a few years experience with venomous keeping, I offered a suggestion to a venomous snake he might add, with a warning about its potential danger, as did Paul and Greg. All of the suggestions were for snakes that would have been a good transition to him keeping some new snakes, without getting into the super dangerous snakes out there. I did note that Shayne was a student with no age listed, but also noted he had experience with some fairly dangerous snakes. The one thing that Shayne said that was probably a mistake, was saying that Puff Adders are docile. Perhaps the ones he keeps are, but docile does not apply to all of them. But I guess, if you have never run into a nasty Puff, you would be inclined that they all behave the way the one you have behaves.
Well, Rob jumped in, and brought up the point that venomous keepers should have anti-venin available, (which I totally agree with), but he also jumped into his ``preaching mode`` that there is no teenager on the face of the earth that is capable of keeping a venomous snake. We have seen this here before in previous threads by Rob that Shayne might not be awair of, as he is new here. People who have been here a while know Rob`s opinions on that subject, as he has stated it time and time again. Thats fine, as his obinion is based on his years of personal experiences, and perhaps the high school aged persons that he deals with in Chicago are a bit less capable than high schoolers in other parts of the country.
What bothes me though is that it became sort of a ``Pissing Contest`` with Rob criticising Shane, who he really does not know nothing about. He jumped all over Shayne for saying that Puffs are docile, and he started attacking Shaynes lack of experience whthout knowing anything about him. Now, I have to admit that I was also skeptical when Shayne said that he has anti-venom available for his Puffs, but it is also possible that he does. I think Rob went overboard with the ``who is gonna take care of your animals when you are in college,`` and the ``liability towards his parents`` issues. That stuff Rob is really none of your business. Some parents do support venomous keeping by their teen aged kids, and are probably awair of the risks. (I do agree though, that if a young keeper gets bitten by a venomous snake, the bad press does hurt the hobby as a whole).
Greg tried to calm things down by rightly stating that Robs initial comments were in line. And at first, they were, and mostly showed concern, but that changed to a personal attack in the next post.
Shane made an effort to defend his reptile keeping ability, and his family business, and did not turn to personal insults, which shows a certain level of maturity. He also told us how he does lectures for public education purposes where he lives. He finally got fed up with the debate, and finally said he would be leaving this forum, and took down his profile information. I think he made a very good effort denending himself without resorting to personal attacks when confronted with an debate from someone with many years more experience.
I have never net Rob in person, but from reading this and past postings here by him, I do in my opinion, get the idea that Rob means well, but at times ``preaches`` too much, and has a bit of a chip on his sholder. He states something about not getting respect he deserves from younger members, well, if all you can do is make personal attacks, I would not respect your back ground very much also.
The way I see this, is that Rob has driven a young member with a lot of potential from this forum, ( Shayne, I hope you will not leave the forum, as if you do, then Rob wins ). Perhaps Rob`s comments were well intentioned, but at the same time they were insensitive and show that Rob (although he mentors teens at his zoo) does not communicate all that well with young members here. It is possible to offer advise without critising bad husbandry techniques or personal viewpoints, and turning a thread into an attack.
Anyway, sorry folks for the long thread. But at a time when our hobby is being torn apart by animal rights activists, we really should make an effort to get along here, even when we dissagree about topics, and not turn the fourm into personal attacks.
That is why I titled this thread `` We have met the enemy, and he is us.``
My apologies in advance to Rob and Shayne for my views on this. I hope I have not added a third stream to the contest and lost friends with my comments.
Best Regards JohnZ
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by tj on September 28, 2006
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"if you are a college student, you oughta hold off until you finish your degree."
While I agree with some points, I don't understand this one. Will a degree make him a better handler?
Has anyone ever thought that maybe his father is a venomous snake owner, and he MAY have a bakcground?
While I'm not for young, inexperienced keepers keeping venomous snakes, I do know of one in this very forum that receieved his FL venomous license when he was 18.
At the time he was working on his hours, I gave him some sh!t because he was so young. But after talking with him, meeting him, and becoming friends with him, at 21 he is one of the most responsible keepers I know. And, is an excellent handler, breeder, and keeper. A degree doesn't mean anything. I have people with doctorates and MBA's where I work that have no common sense at all. They could probably tell you the theory on keeping venomous, but shouldn't be allowed to even open a cage. And I would venture a guess to say that there are for more people in here with no degree, even a few zookeeper's, than people with one.
Just some thoughts to ponder.
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by MoccasinMan on September 28, 2006
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I know Spikey personally... and his parents who support his hobby. Although I would not encourage someone of his age to work with hots, I happen to know he is an advanced keeper. How many of us were working with hots at his age? I would guess many. Like I said, I would never encourage a minor to work with hots... but Spikey was working with them before I met him and his parents. His mother is a teacher and closely supervises all his activities. Working with hots is not without its risks... but Spikey's passion for reptiles of all kinds has proven to be a positive force in his life. He is too busy with reptiles to get involved with drugs and alcohal. That's a good thing.
Andrew
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RE: Needs yalls opinions.
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by Rob_Carmichael on September 28, 2006
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Folks, folks, folks; this will be my last post on this particular thread but its obvious there is a misunderstanding here (I'll take full blame):
1) High school kids shouldn't keep venomous herps: that's my philosophy based on many years in the business and profession. Does that mean that a high school kid doesn't have the ability or know-how to keep a venomous reptile? Of course not! I've had some incredibly talented kids who spent their summers catching king browns, tigers, etc in Australia and all kind of venomous from all over the world but they know that they shouldn't keep venomous until they either finish college, or, have their own place and a few more years under their belt; unlike another post, these kids from Chicago are some of the smartest kids on earth (you can do your own research and find where Lake Forest ranks in terms of education, etc....that's Lake Forest, IL). Once again, this is my philosophy and if some young person has a problem with that, well, its their problem.
2) Education: folks, while a college degree doesn't make you a better person, it does open MANY more doors than w/out a college education. I wouldn't be nearly as far as I am now if it wasn't for my college education and post graduate studies. If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourselves. Go to college, get a degree, and you'll have many more opportunities. How does that equate to keeping venomous herps? Well, perhaps none, but the power of education should never be undermined because I believe it does help in many ways (even the keeping of venomous herps).
3) Chip on my shoulder: No chip on these big shoulders; I've got the greatest job on earth, the greatest family on earth, heck, the greatest life on earth (and I thank the Lord every day for that) and I have no need for supposed "chips" in my life. I am passionate about reptiles and about the responsible keeping of reptiles and for that matter, I do come off a "tad" opinionated (okay, a lot) but you are mistaking passion for being cynical. We live in a day and age where our rights are being taken one state at a time and I guarantee you, every time someone pops up in the paper for keeping a venomous snake illegally (or legally but not in a proper manner) it makes us all look bad. High school kids are still maturing, are still growing up, and still learning how to make good choices. Their brains are still developing and for this and many other reasons, they just shouldn't keep venomous herps. The power of education does in fact help you to develop these capabilities so I will stick by my belief that completing college does improve the quality of one's life but that is only based on the many opportuniteis I have had as a result of completing college. Once again, though, that's my opinion. Colleagues that I highly respect differ from my opinion and I respect them for that as well. If we all agreed it would be one boring world.
I was going to list more but I'm obviously beating a dead horse and would be better off just biting my forked tongue. Spikey, I'm sure you're a good kid with a true passion and I would encourage you to continue pursuing that passion even if folks like me are considered "out of touch" in some way. Although I don't agree with you keeping venomous, we live in a free world and the freedom of choice and I won't knock that. Just keep an open mind to those in your life who have been around for a long time with a proven track record, continue to search for knowledge and ask questions, and always hold the utmost of respect for your "docile" venomous herps; many a keeper are now 6' under from letting their guard down for just a milli second. I guess I'm preaching again....Amen!
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by SimplySnakes on September 28, 2006
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Spikey, I understand your position and enthusiasm. I know you are not asking our permission to buy or collect a hot snake to keep. You are asking for advise from more experienced people.
I collected my first venomous snake when I was 12. Before I turned 18 I had collected over 300 venomous snakes. I know this due to the records kept by Silver Springs Attraction here in Florida. This used to be the Ross Allen Reptile Institute. During my teenage years I hunted with Mike Flournoy (head curator) to stock the attractions in the Park. He was my mentor, and taught me the techniqe of collecting and handling our native venomous. He taught me well.
I have faith in you as long as you are careful and make good decisions. I think you are going to do what you what to do. Keep learning, you'll be fine.
Paul
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by Phobos on September 29, 2006
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I have to ask why we are answering questions posed by someone who has not even filled out a minimum in their profile?
Al
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