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``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! `` Pogo
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by Cro on September 28, 2006
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I really hate starting this thread, as it is going to piss off some folks here, but sometimes you have to stir the low-country boil !
Some of you have probably been reading the thread below started by Shayne ( Spikey Reptiles ) titled ``Needs yalls opinions.``
He started off asking about adding a venomous snake to his collection. After reading his profile which suggested he had a few years experience with venomous keeping, I offered a suggestion to a venomous snake he might add, with a warning about its potential danger, as did Paul and Greg. All of the suggestions were for snakes that would have been a good transition to him keeping some new snakes, without getting into the super dangerous snakes out there. I did note that Shayne was a student with no age listed, but also noted he had experience with some fairly dangerous snakes. The one thing that Shayne said that was probably a mistake, was saying that Puff Adders are docile. Perhaps the ones he keeps are, but docile does not apply to all of them. But I guess, if you have never run into a nasty Puff, you would be inclined that they all behave the way the one you have behaves.
Well, Rob jumped in, and brought up the point that venomous keepers should have anti-venin available, (which I totally agree with), but he also jumped into his ``preaching mode`` that there is no teenager on the face of the earth that is capable of keeping a venomous snake. We have seen this here before in previous threads by Rob that Shayne might not be awair of, as he is new here. People who have been here a while know Rob`s opinions on that subject, as he has stated it time and time again. Thats fine, as his obinion is based on his years of personal experiences, and perhaps the high school aged persons that he deals with in Chicago are a bit less capable than high schoolers in other parts of the country.
What bothes me though is that it became sort of a ``Pissing Contest`` with Rob criticising Shane, who he really does not know nothing about. He jumped all over Shayne for saying that Puffs are docile, and he started attacking Shaynes lack of experience whthout knowing anything about him. Now, I have to admit that I was also skeptical when Shayne said that he has anti-venom available for his Puffs, but it is also possible that he does. I think Rob went overboard with the ``who is gonna take care of your animals when you are in college,`` and the ``liability towards his parents`` issues. That stuff Rob is really none of your business. Some parents do support venomous keeping by their teen aged kids, and are probably awair of the risks. (I do agree though, that if a young keeper gets bitten by a venomous snake, the bad press does hurt the hobby as a whole).
Greg tried to calm things down by rightly stating that Robs initial comments were in line. And at first, they were, and mostly showed concern, but that changed to a personal attack in the next post.
Shane made an effort to defend his reptile keeping ability, and his family business, and did not turn to personal insults, which shows a certain level of maturity. He also told us how he does lectures for public education purposes where he lives. He finally got fed up with the debate, and finally said he would be leaving this forum, and took down his profile information. I think he made a very good effort denending himself without resorting to personal attacks when confronted with an debate from someone with many years more experience.
I have never net Rob in person, but from reading this and past postings here by him, I do in my opinion, get the idea that Rob means well, but at times ``preaches`` too much, and has a bit of a chip on his sholder. He states something about not getting respect he deserves from younger members, well, if all you can do is make personal attacks, I would not respect your back ground very much also.
The way I see this, is that Rob has driven a young member with a lot of potential from this forum, ( Shayne, I hope you will not leave the forum, as if you do, then Rob wins ). Perhaps Rob`s comments were well intentioned, but at the same time they were insensitive and show that Rob (although he mentors teens at his zoo) does not communicate all that well with young members here. It is possible to offer advise without critising bad husbandry techniques or personal viewpoints, and turning a thread into an attack.
Anyway, sorry folks for the long thread. But at a time when our hobby is being torn apart by animal rights activists, we really should make an effort to get along here, even when we dissagree about topics, and not turn the fourm into personal attacks.
That is why I titled this thread `` We have met the enemy, and he is us.``
My apologies in advance to Rob and Shayne for my views on this. I hope I have not added a third stream to the contest and lost friends with my comments.
Best Regards JohnZ
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RE: ``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! ``
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by FLVenom911 on September 28, 2006
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Curious, what is the standard age to begin working with venomous reptiles since some believe there is one? Responsibility, dedication, and maturity are the three biggest things that "younger" hot herp keepers need. Steve Irwin started a very young age, as did some others. Now, not every high schooler is ready to work with venomous reptiles, but I am sure there is a few out there.
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RE: ``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! ``
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by snakeguy101 on September 28, 2006
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i can under stand why rob, along with many other feel that "we" are not able to handle venomous reptiles but all of the things that were mentioned above have been taken care of. for exsample i will not own any venomous reptiles until AFTER college and i have been mentored since i was 12 and have no intent on stopping until at least 20, i think that that is an ample amount of time to learn how to deal with hots, plus some. i hope that shayne will come back as we need every responsible person that we can get if we want to change the legislature and promote conservation.
chris hartmann
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Gasp! No! He Didn't!!
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by SwampY on September 28, 2006
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Yes, I did. What did I do? I'll tell you in a minute.
I've known High School age kids who had more sense messing with hots than 40 year old men. And just the opposite.
Zack and Derek Egolf were 14 when I met them and they already had a collection that would make most of you cry. Over the next few years I saw two of the most responsible and enthusiastic hot keeping kids grow into two of the most responsible and enthusiastic young men in this hobby. I even traded snakes with them a few times (though I always actually handed the snakes to their parents as I was quite paranoid at the time.)
I had no problem writing them a recommendation for their florida permits just a few months after their 18th birthday. I would still trust them with any snake in my collection any day.
There are however, some fully grown men who frequent these forums that I wouldn't give a garter to.
Are all kids that responsible? no. But I have to agree with Joe. There are some out there.
Chad Minter
http://www.envenomated.com
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RE: ``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! ``
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by rabbitsmcgates on September 29, 2006
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Man, is this a topic near and dear to my heart! Maybe for different reasons, maybe for the same reasons. I generally hate posting my age on any public website. I hate posting any personal info on any public website. And when I want to know something, I ask it, no matter how silly or stupid it sounds. If I knew then I wouldn't be asking. Well, over on another major website cyngsnack.com (something like that) when I try to ask anything about keeping venomous snakes that I've never kept before they 1) attack my "husbandry", 2) attack the fact that I should never have gotten the snake in the first place, 3) attack that if I'm saying that I'm doing something different than them then I am just making it up, 4) attack that I don't even have venomous snakes to begin with, 5) delete my profile, 6) when I ask why that happened there is no reply, 7) I create a new profile and post questions, 8) the new profile is promptly deleted.
And lest you think its an isolated occurence, it has happened at least since 2003. So, for those of us who REALLY want to know something and aren't afraid to sound silly asking it where were we suppose to ask? Nowhere. Not that I knew of anyway. So, if the people who know how to take care of venomous snakes REFUSE to tell the people who don't know how, what will the people who don't know how do? Why, we will teach ourselves of course and WISH ALL THE OLDTIMERS DIE THE WORST VENOMOUS DEATH IN THE HISTORY OF THE PLANET FOR THEIR STIFF-NECKED REFUSAL TO HELP ANYBODY STARTING OUT AND POSSIBLY KILLING SOMEBODY BY WITHHOLDING INFORMATION!!! That is what people would think about people who REFUSE to share information with them. Of course that never happens around here! :p
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RE: ``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! ``
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by rabbitsmcgates on September 29, 2006
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Oh, I also say what's on my mind at the time. I'm never angry though. Just pretending.....or am I? ;P
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RE: ``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! ``
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by timberrattlesnake89 on September 29, 2006
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Ok I think this whole topic is gotten way of control. Your really chill the f*** down dude. Its easier to ignore what people say. Besides I really do not know of anyone on this website that has had there profile deleted. You really do need to forget what most people say. I think so many people on these forums have there head so far up there own ass that its sad. I think many people have way to big of egos. I have deffinately noticed this with curators for some reason or another. There is no reason to making death threats. That is a way to get expelled off this forum. There are a lot of old-time herpers that are really knowlegable and support younger herpers. I really think no one can judge someone until they meet them. So until then I believe people just need to end this topic. Us arguing over stupids things never get us anywhere. Sure there are a lot of people who do not like younger herpers but oh well thats I guess is just what old people do.
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RE: ``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! ``
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by rickyduckworth on September 29, 2006
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just like everything else in life, you're better off taking it on an individual basis........if not, you're unfairly stereotyping someone......there are more elitists in this hobby than at any country club......but at the same time, there are guys who will bend over backwards to help you IF you get past that outer protective shell.......having some type of wall up is necessary but you don't have to keep it up....after you figure out that someone isn't just wanting to become a hot keeper on a whim, you should enlighten them as much as they'll let you....you should teach them all you can, but expect them to screw up somewhere along the way, because that's life....just help them keep it all together and that's all that matters......stay alive, do something that either makes you happy or is productive, don't cause any type of negative backlash in the process and you're fine
and remember, NO ONE does exactly what they say behind closed doors.....we all do things that aren't 100% smart.....grabbing water bowls that are 99% out of strike range because we've had the snake so long, etc.....you can't fault others for doing what you do yourself......you have to help the hobby grow by sharing info and perpetuating everything good about it....it won't last in the state that it's in, and numbers are a good thing to have.....
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RE: ``We Have Met The Enemy, And He Is Us ! ``
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by rabbitsmcgates on September 30, 2006
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Its not this website I'm talking about. My bad experiences were on kingsnake.com; I wasn't going to say specifically but since it has gone for years, I guess its not a big secret. And I did not threaten anyone, I'm just illustrating how angry beginners will be when told it would be preferable for them to (potentially) kill themselves than to be taught anything useful because they (apparently) haven't gotten the "husbandry" implant that automatically downloads it into your brainstem so you "always knew it" or [*warning* analogy coming up; or is it simile?] their birth year has the wrong digits so the old DOS 3.1 programs can't work with the new WindowsXP Professional Update 2 so it must be some lack in WindowsXP, so its criticized, which makes it feel completely decompiled. Okay, so that was a bad analogy. But it was fun to come up with and it didn't hurt anyone and it got the message over (maybe) so it all was still good. You know why? Because we don't have to be serious all the time on here. I could have faced death that day. I was inches away from a couple Green Mambas today. Each of them were separate. I had to soak them so they could shed. I was terrified. I used two mini hooks. I tried to get each in a bucket of warm water with a dab of hair conditioner in it. I only had one out at a time. One was much longer than the other. Both reacted much the same. Unlike any other snake, they tried to bite the hook. Several times. They did NOT want to go in the bucket of warm water. They grabbed the hook with the tail sometimes. If I got the tail in the bucket it came out and grabbed the outer edge of the bucket. If i hooked it too quickly it would bite the hook. If i was making progress getting ahead of it getting it into the bucket before it could crawl away, it would grab one hook with the tail and wrap around that a few times then when I hooked the head end it would twine around that and head up toward my hands!!! I don't mind telling you that I did the only thing I thought reasonable at the time: I dropped both hooks generally over the bucket of water! I felt worried for the snakes (they each did it individually) that they weren't hurt but it was about a foot or so, so it was too bad I guess. But having the business end of a Green Mamba coming toward my hands was too much. Oh, and one of them I put in the bucket and it violently attacked a water ripple so that was something. And I guess that made me nervous because I poked it with the tip of the hook while it was on the hook and it went nuts. I thought it was bleeding, but it turned out to be dead skin rolled back. Anyway, I was TERRIFIED today. I had to do something with these snakes that I actually never expected that I would EVER do because I am TERRIFIED of what they can do to me. They are calmer than I thought they would be but they also are THE MOST DANGEROUS SNAKES I HAVE EVER SEEN. They are like someone with no conscience that goes along and if they like something, fine, and if they don't then they kill it, and they go along some more, but they don't think about it afterwards. Out of sight, out of mind. These things bite metal. Then its over. They go on. They have forgotten. They bite metal again. Then its over. They go on. To them, they are in charge. To them, they bite, something dies. I would say that was being in charge.
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